Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome back to another edition of our diocesan podcast, Big City Catholics, with Bishop Robert Brennan, the diocesan bishop of Brooklyn and Queens, myself, Father Christopher Henu, the rector of the Co Cathedral of St. Joseph. We're really excited today to welcome a guest, Ruth Nelson, who just authored a book, Our lady of the World's Fair. Of course, the World's fair being one of the most historic and significant events here in our diocese of Brooklyn, happening right here in the borough of Queens. We'll talk a little bit about that great book, very exciting book, which is releasing on Monday, September 16. So we're very happy to have you, Ruth, with us. We'll begin, though, in prayer, I think pretty appropriately, praying through the intercession of our Blessed Mother. As we start, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Amen. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: In the name of the Father, son, Holy Spirit.
[00:01:06] Speaker C: Amen.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: Father Christopher, it's good to be with you again. Thank you for getting us started. And thanks to the team of this sales media, because we have a special treat today. We have a guest with us, as you mentioned, Ruthenhenne Nelson, the author of Our lady of the World's Fair. I had a great honor. I had a chance to review the book early on, and I was fascinated by it. So I am thrilled that it's out now and for its release and to talk about it as much as I can. But welcome, Ruth, thanks for joining us today.
[00:01:38] Speaker C: Well, thank you, Bishop Brennan. It's just an honor to be here and a delight, and I'm so glad that you have an interest in my book and that you enjoyed the review. So that's very gratifying to me because I'm not a native of New York, and I wasn't even sure how it would be received. So I'm so happy that you liked it.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: I have a feeling it'll be very, very well received, especially in Queens, because, you know, this is one of the reasons I was fascinated. Flushing Meadow park is really an important center. It's a real cultural center. First of all, in our diocese in Brooklyn and Queens. I always say the whole world lives in Brooklyn and Queens. And if you go into Flushing Meadow park on a Saturday or a Sunday, the whole world is in Flushing Meadow park. It's just fantastic. But there are all of the scenes, if you will, the remnants of the world's fair the unisphere, the tower, and, of course, a whole area is built up around that and will continue to be built up. What was Shea Stadium now? Citi Field, the tennis arenas where we had our eucharistic congress back in the spring. So the site is very, very important. But as you know, personally, the world's fair was one of my earliest memories. And I was, I mean, really young. I was born in 62, the world's fair. I was a toddler. But it's one of the moments, one of the things I can actually picture in my mind, certain memories from that experience.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: One thing that struck me, Ruth, when I was reading the book, just the nostalgic atmosphere of it, you know, growing up in queens, myself, seeing that, you know, really, for me, the idea of the world's fair, the most iconic, most recent thought, is a movie that was maybe produced in, like, 2000 Men in Black, where they used the perisphere to shoot off into space or something. That's about all I know about it, really. You know, I mean, I lived experience, but then it. In reading the book and then even researching some old YouTube commercials for the world's fair, how incredible it was. So what was the reason why you wanted to tell this story?
[00:03:44] Speaker C: Well, I had returned to academia to get my masters in art history. My first class was on renaissance italian sculpture. And, you know, looking at the Pieta, Michelangelo, I go, you know, I remember. I don't remember exactly seeing the Pieta when we had a family vacation to the world's fair in 64. But we had gone and seen it, and this story stuck in mind. And I thought, wow, that would be just an amazing story, how this all came about. And so I decided to make it my little research project. And so it's been over a few years, but I was fascinated by it. I was fascinated, first by the statue, then the world's fair, and then, as I got deeper into it, how important Cardinal Spelman was. Growing up in the Chicago area, I really didn't know Cardinal Spelman. So I started to do my research mostly at two places. Well, three places. The New York Public Library, the archives of the Archdiocese of New York, and then the Diocese of Brooklyn archives, which really has the motherlode of archives regarding the world's fair. And I was just struck by this cooperation between Cardinal Spellman and Robert Moses. And I felt Cardinal Spelman, he's been a little maligned over time, and that he really, I feel today, does not get the credit he deserves. And also Bishop Macintaggart and how well the two worked together. Even though Cardinal Spellman was more in the spotlight, the team of archdiocese and priests were maybe a little bit more in the spotlight. But the bishop of Brooklyn and his team really worked so hard to make this all happen. It was really remarkable.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: It is, when you think about it. On the one hand, Robert Moses around here in the New York area is both a hero and a villain. You hear his name often, he's very often vilified, and he was one of those just get it done. And we had churches that were moved because of the building of the Brooklyn Queens Expressway, that built churches that just were taken down. That's how it's done. On the other hand, and as a Long Islander growing up, 12 miles of public beach property right on the ocean, that's available to everyone. And that was the idea behind Plushie Meadow park and the world's fair, to make experiences that otherwise would be very limiting, available to many, many people. And so, yes, we have that cooperation with him. And with Cardinal Spellman, you captured it correctly. I mean, we're sort of the younger sister to the mother diocese of New York. I mean, yeah, a lot of the work would have been done, and it's great that there was a great collaboration between Bishop McIntaggart and Cardinal Spellman, but maybe we got a lot of the work here in New York, but as a bishop of Brooklyn, probably would not have the cachet, the influence to be able to make this happen. And really, reading this story, it was a very unlikely occurrence. I mean, this had really more odds against it than in favor.
[00:07:16] Speaker C: Yes. And it also struck me that initially, Cardinal Spellman was not really eager to take this on because of the tremendous cost that would be borne by the archdiocese and then surrounding diocese well across the whole country. Spelman asked for support, and, you know, there were bishops out in Nebraska that weren't too keen on supporting this, you know, and Spelman had, you know, so many other concerns, but as it evolved and that there was this possibility of alone of the Pieta, it changed the dynamics. So now Spelman and Moses could see the impact. You know, each had their own particular goal, but it really became a catalyst to energize not only Catholics, but people across the whole country to come to the fair.
[00:08:18] Speaker B: That's right. And, you know, the autistic community worldwide was not very much in favor of this. The italian government was not in favor of this. There were many in the church circles outside of the New York area who, for good reason. For good reason. They were concerned about the peace. I can imagine what it took. Well, I get a good picture reading your book, but the way that Walter, the details, the way it had to be packed, and that was all experimental, too, right?
[00:08:50] Speaker C: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. When the news broke in the New York Times that the pope is sending over the pieta, it was like an atom bomb was dropped on the art world. They were just horrified. And it's true, museums shipped artwork all the time, but there were so many unknowns about the pietal. Really? Was it one solid block of marble? Could there have been fissures, tiny cracks in the sculpture? People didn't know this, but the team that Spelman pulled together was such an expert team, cutting edge. They investigated every single doubt or question that could come up, and, in fact, recruited Kodak to x ray the statue, and they confirmed that, in fact, there were no cracks in the marble. So that was a huge relief. The other kind of funny story is how this new technology was so disruptive to the Vatican moving team, you know, the Montenegrobes, a family who had been moving sculpture for generations, and how threatened they were by the american team coming over. But there was too much at stake to not fight to have the Pieta packed in this latest technology material. No, it's styrofoam. Molded styrofoam.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: And then just the idea of sea crossing the ocean. I mean, that too. Anything can happen. And insurance and all of those things. Wow.
[00:10:35] Speaker C: You know, what about a thunderstorm? Or, you know, initially, someone floated the idea of a submarine passage, and they had eliminated the possibility of flying it over. They were so good that even if the ship sank, the Pieta would float. The crate was so well packed and devised that the little signal on the crate.
[00:10:58] Speaker B: Now, the other thing, you made some very important points. You talked about how it was done. I found that a fascinating, fascinating story and very intricate, but well told. I mean, it keeps the. His attention, but the other is the impact of this visit. Think about it. 1964, air travel was still relatively new and not something available to the ordinary family in the United States. What were the chances that families would have access to be able to see this work of art, which is also an inspirational work, which draws us toward prayer? And this gave that possibility. You mentioned yourself, a family vacation to see the world's fair. The accessibility was just a great gift.
[00:11:45] Speaker C: And going through the archives at the New York Public Library, I would see letters that came into Robert Moses from people thanking him. And there were people that, we're not even Catholic, but we are so grateful for this opportunity.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: So had such broad appeal, and it was truly successful. I mean, you mentioned towards the end of the book the impact of the Vatican Pavilion. A total of 27,020,857 guests. All your stats are really incredible. What I thought was also very apropos of the time, 2500 masses were offered in the Vatican pavilion, 78 concerts, 45 organ recitals. So it was truly a very popular visit. And my question when I was reading this is what happened to. So they created the chapel that you mentioned a little bit about particular diocese receiving some of the stained glass windows. There was the good shepherd statue as well that was brought over. This is why I mentioned this whole idea of nostalgia, because when you walk through Flushing Meadow park now, just to think, well, all of these images, all these pavilions that used to exist there, you kind of make mention of this about the next mayor, the newly elected mayor, John Lindsay. And as the sort of, the park began to deteriorate and fall apart. But what happened to some of those items? Did they. They went to different dioceses as they went to different churches?
[00:13:07] Speaker C: Well, the most notable feature of the pavilion, the chapel, was salvaged and that was moved to Groton, Connecticut. And if you go to St. Mary's in Groton, if you go to their website, it's just remarkable to see how beautifully they built their church out of this chapel. It's stunning. And the stained glass windows are all the original. It was wonderful. And then the banners, the liturgical banners, had a very modern feel to them. And it jump started this new wave of liturgical banners that it was so influential across christian churches in America. Not only catholic churches, but protestant churches embrace this new style of liturgical art. And then Sister Karita Kant, the artist who did much of the artwork for the pavilion, she's been rediscovered today by a younger generation. So she's having sort of her moments now after all of these years. So it did have such an impact on the arts in the church. The team had to really negotiate all of the changes that were coming out of Vatican II while holding masses. There were so many changes coming.
So the pavilion had to manage so many different aspects of not only the exhibits, but the mass itself and all of the visitors.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: Beautifully said. Beautifully said. We often try to say that our churches, while they have some beautiful art, our churches are not museums. Our churches are living bodies. And it's people of every generation living out their faith and worshiping God and celebrating his love for us and being challenged and inspired to go out and to love God and love our neighbors. So these kinds of things, these kind of moments are truly religious and inspirational. You know, one of the gifts for us, we were given in diocese of Brooklyn and the Archdiocese of New York were each given a replica of the pietat. And just to give a sense of perspective with the real thing. I can see it. It's massive, but it is incredibly, incredibly heavy. So the replica in New York is over at the seminary St. Joseph Seminary in Dunwoody, and our replica is at what was a college seminary, is now really a diocesan center, the Immaculate Conception center. No one knows how that could have gotten into the building. The building was built a few years after we believe that building was built around that piece, to be able to have it in there. And then that replica sits on the pedestal or the stand on which the original Pieta stood. So that, for us, is a connection.
[00:16:19] Speaker C: With that moment that's so wonderful. That must be beautiful. I have not seen that, but the next time I'm in Queensland, oh, you'll.
[00:16:29] Speaker B: Have to come and visit. Absolutely, absolutely. And it does mean a lot. Maybe if I could just say a word about the importance of that art. Again, thank you for bringing this story to us and really helping us to appreciate the tradition that is ours. You know, it's interesting, your book is being released just after the weekend on which the church observes a lady of sorrows. The feast of Our lady of Sorrows is usually September 15. This year it gets supplanted by a Sunday. But there's a great devotion to Our lady of Sorrows in this diocese, especially in the italian community and the hispanic community. But there really is the image of Mary, our Lady of Sorrows. There she is, holding the dead body, her son, but showing to us the gift that God gave us. A emptied himself, becoming human, living among us with all of its vulnerabilities, even his painful death, and surrendered, even until the moment of death, to the moment of his last breath. And Mary, his mother, accompanied him through all of those sorrows. There were so many emotions and also religious inspirations that can be drawn. Looking at that image, you see the grief of a mother. You see Mary's solidarity with her son. You see love in both their faces. You know, there's that beautiful scene where Jesus is on the cross and would have every reason to be focusing on his own sufferings. And that exchange with John, the beloved disciple, and Mary. Woman, behold your son. Son, behold your mother. There's a passage, love is stronger than death, that comes through in this image. So we're grateful that all those years ago this opportunity came about. It brought a generation of people closer to the Lord and to experience something that was unattainable. Today, you know, air travel is a little more common. People make a point of getting to different places and so a lot of people have seen it, but for that time, it was important and it remains a living legacy for us. So thank you for bringing the story alive.
[00:18:41] Speaker C: Well, thank you. I just want to add one note, please, that the pavilion was so well run, a team of incredible volunteers, but it was the gift shop. They made so much money, they were able to pay for the pope's first trip to the western hemisphere.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:19:01] Speaker C: And it was Pope Paul VI. It was huge. And that also had a powerful impact on christians across the country. And not just Catholics and even non Christians. Yes, it was so moving for people of all faiths.
[00:19:17] Speaker B: And it was at an important moment in the life of the church. The Vatican council, he went to visit the UN. That too. You're right, that was transformational. It's funny, we take papal visits for granted in a sense now, but that was huge.
[00:19:30] Speaker C: And at the park, flushing meadows, there is a monument to the site where the pavilion was built. And Pope Paul's visit, there's an excedra, so you can visit that and see the spot where the pope visited. And the pavilion was built, too, so it's a nice little reminder.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: Well, I'm glad you said that. We're looking forward to some of our listeners making their way to the bookstores and to visit, to go back to Flushing Meadow park and to look for some of those hidden treasures and also, of course, to our diocesan center. We're very, very fortunate for this reminder. So I thank you for writing the book. I thank you so much for being with me today. This is great.
[00:20:14] Speaker C: Well, I thank you.
[00:20:15] Speaker A: The name of the book again is Our lady of the World's fair bringing Michelangelo's Pieta to Queens in 1964, authored by Ruth Nelson. Thank you, Ruth, for being with us today. I really enjoyed reading the book myself and I'm looking forward to sharing the book with others friends of mine, as well as priests in the diocese of our close connection, too. Perhaps we could ask Bishop to end us with a prayer. The Lord be with you and with your spirit.
[00:20:40] Speaker B: May the Lord bless you and keep you. May his face shine upon you and be gracious to you. May he look upon you with kindness and grant you his peace. And may the blessing of Almighty God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit come upon you and remain with you forever and ever. Amen.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: Thank you for joining us. Thank you again, Ruth Nelson, for your presence with us today and all those who listen to us each and every Friday. We look forward to you joining us again next week.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: Subscribe.
