Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign hello, and welcome to this week's edition of Big City Catholics. I'm your host, Bishop Robert Brennan, Bishop of Brooklyn, serving in Brooklyn and Queens. And I'm joined today by Ed Wilkinson. Many of you know Ed Wilkinson. He's part of the history of the Diocese of Brooklyn and has served as past editor of the Tablet, is still very close to DeSales Media, and has covered just about everything you can imagine. Why don't we begin with a prayer? In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. As the cardinals gather in Rome this coming week to begin the conclave, we invoke the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and kindle in them the fire of your love. Send forth your spirit, O Lord, and they shall be created, and you shall renew the face of the earth. In the name of the Father and of the Son, of the Holy Spirit. Amen. So, Ed, we are really calling on the Holy Spirit this week with so many things, both locally and certainly the big news is that while we're still in these nine days of mourning, these nine days of remembering Pope Francis and commending him to the Lord, we're at the threshold of a new conclave. And so we really do need the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. But I asked you to join me this week because you are a font of knowledge. You've covered a lot of things over the years, and you recently published a book with some of your photographic images and recollections. I thought it was fascinating. For me, it was a great chronicle of the modern history of the Diocese of Brooklyn.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: Well, thank you, Bishop. It's called Chasing Church News, and I was coming to the end of my career. You know, I spent 50 years, exactly 50 years working for the Tablet. And I had been all over Brooklyn, in Queens, and, you know, in addition to writing, we, all of us at the Tablet, took our own photos. And it's one of the things that I really enjoyed about the job was taking photos. And as I looked back, I said I thought I had some pretty decent photos. And I looked at them and I said, let's put together a collection of these photos. And I managed to pick at least one from every year that I worked. And we put them together as a collection of what it was like to be a Catholic here in the Brooklyn diocese over that 50 year span. I really loved the way it came out. It's called Chasing Church News, as I said. And in it, there are pictures of popes, there are pictures of governors. There are pictures of just laymen in the, in the pews. It's just, I think, a nice cross section of what the church was like during that 50 year period.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: And I found it incredibly interesting because it really spanned much of my own consciousness of the life of the church here in New York on Long Island. You know, I was growing up that time in Nassau and Suffolk county, but Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau, Suffolk, we were part of one metropolitan area. And so it really for me was a great reliving of many events. And we find ourselves kind of coming back now to the cycle of things as we're on the threshold of the conclave that will select a new pope to lead the Church. But before we do that, you covered, I'm sure too, an awful lot of public policy issues. And the Church has had to stand as a voice, especially in the 50 years of your professional life with Tablet, we've had to be a voice for the voiceless, particularly in the pro life arena.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, pro life has really been a big issue over those 50 years. As you recall, Pope John Paul II said that was the key issue. The life issue was the one that we have to look at.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: And years ago when we were talking about abortion and say, you know, once you go down that path, it just gets wider and wider and wider. And sure enough, we would say, you know, euthanasia is on the table. And people said, oh, you're just exaggerating, you're crazy. Well, here in New York, just this week, the New York State assembly passed legislation for assisted suicide in New York. And that's a real tragedy, you know, with the death of Pope Francis, who gave us just a beautiful model of how to live and die with hope. This so called bill about death with dignity is quite the opposite. It's a death without hope. It's a death that just kind of leads to despair and ending it. We'll have to talk about this more in future podcasts. But to me, one of the biggest issues is as we're dealing with the suicide crisis in this country, what message are we sending? It's really chilling.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, unfortunately, New York State, it's been a leader in very progressive ideas. And of course this assisted suicide proposal is awful. One of the things we can do as Catholics and which I've always encour people, is to join the Catholic Action Network organized by the New York State Catholic Conference. And that's terrific because they alert you when these bills are coming up. And just today I got the alert and I sent the message to my particular legislators here in Brooklyn saying that I'm opposed to this. You know, don't go there. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of luck or support in the state assembly or state Senate, but we have to keep battling against these things. So I think people should make their voices known through that Catholic Action Network.
[00:05:25] Speaker A: It's a very important tool. And you can go to the New York State Catholic Conference, just type those words in your search engine. New York State Catholic Conference. You get to the homepage and you find the trending issues, but definitely join that Catholic advocacy network. It's an important tool for all of us. So, Ed, you've been here before, I've been here before. We've had the sadness in these last couple of weeks of warning Pope Francis, but, you know, we're on the threshold of a brand new era again. We continue to remember Pope Francis legacy, but we're talking about where the Church is. What is the experience of the Church all around the world. And the cardinals are gathering during this week. And next week, Wednesday the 7th, they'll begin the conclave, which is an incredibly important moment in the life of the Church.
[00:06:13] Speaker B: Yeah, we've covered a number of conclaves at the Tablet. It's always a time of great excitement because, you know, you don't know what's coming. And I remember going back to 1978. I was a reporter for the Tablet, and I remember being in the Tablet office, and we had radios. We were listening to radios at the time, and we got the news. You know, they announced the name of the pope, Cardinal Wojtygua. And everybody said, who is that? You know, nobody knew who he was. Even the guy who was making the announcement on the radio said, who is he?
[00:06:44] Speaker A: My friend Bishop Murphy tells the story that he was actually over in Rome. I guess he was working there at the time. He was there. He was in St. Peter's Square. And they did say Cardinal Roti from Bologna.
From Bologna. And he said somebody near him in the square said, bologna. There's nobody named Bologna named Motiva. He said, no, Polonia. That was, for me, one of those transformational moments. It really was, because I was in high school, so still, and I had that consciousness of the Church. I knew I wanted to be a priest, but it was really the end of Pope Paul VI's pontificate that, you know, in his last days and then all of the drama, if you will, of 1978, that I was really first conscious of something happening with the Pope. You know what I mean? Up until that point, the Pope was the Pope, and the Pope had always been there and always will be there. And so the idea of a change, this was something new, and I was paying attention to it. So, of course, the election of Pope John Paul, I was, sadly, a bit of a blur.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it was a blur. I don't even remember, you know, covering that conclave because it's so overshadowed by what happened just about a month later.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: Exactly. And the surprise of his dying. I do remember him beginning. And I remember he was received very warmly. He seemed to have a great smile. People really responded to him. That was a great thing. And then, of course, he died suddenly. I remember being in school and Monsignor Mulligan getting on the speaker, saying, please pray for the Holy Father who had just died. And I said, that's old news.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: That's what I said. I got a call late at night from one of the people in the office, and he said, the Pope died. I said, yeah, I know. We just buried him. And he said, no, the Pope died.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: The new Pope. Yeah. But when Pope John Paul emerged on the scene, it just was something incredibly new, was something that, first of all, it engaged me, but you couldn't help but get caught up in all the excitement.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: Yeah, well, he was young, you know, and he was vibrant, and he wasn't Italian. You know, we were always used to Italian popes. He just took another Italian cardinal, and all of a sudden this was going to be different. And people wanted to know, who is this guy? You know, what's it going to be like having a Polish Pope? And it was just the beginning of an exciting time. And, boy, he took us on some right for the next 20 something years.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: That he did. That he did. We saw his death coming. He died on the Saturday before Divine Mercy Sunday, which is so appropriate for his devotional life. We kind of knew that was coming. We saw his decline. He had a beautiful farewell. I remember him coming to the window, telling the young people, I went to you, and now you came to me to be here with me. And he spoke about how much he appreciated it. And then that conclave took place place. And that wasn't quite so filled with surprise. So, yeah, we already had a non Italian Pope, so getting a non Italian Pope wasn't a complete surprise. And Cardinal Ratzinger was part of the courier.
[00:09:43] Speaker B: Yeah, but I remember, you know, when Cardinal Ratzinger was elected, some people were nervous because, you know, he was the head of the Doctrine of the Faith, and they thought he was a very strict man, a Very tough guy. And I think he really was a surprise to us that what a gentle, kind pope he turned out to be. And then he gave us that encyclical, Deus caritas est. It was magnificent, you know, and this wasn't the guy that we had seen as the head of the doctrine of the faith. So I think he was a pleasant surprise, too. Even though people were nervous when he first got elected, he turned out to be a marvelous pope.
[00:10:15] Speaker A: Oh, he was wonderful. And he took us, too, on different kinds of adventures. If Pope John Pope took us out, he kind of drew us in. He drew us into himself, into his own, you might say, his own embrace, but also into ourselves to reflect on the power of God within. I always go back to his book, the series of books, the Jesus of Nazareth books, Beautiful meditations. And as you say, he's encyclical. He encyclical. The Goddess Love. He had a very gentle way of speaking.
[00:10:41] Speaker B: Yes, he did. Yeah, the first time I ever heard him. He actually came to New York when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, and he spoke during the time of Cardinal O'Connor's term. And I went over to take pictures. I took a picture of Cardinal Ratzinger with a group of people. I. I was standing right there, you know, right next to him, forming the group, taking the picture. And then when he was elected, I said, wait a minute, I have photos of this guy when he was in New York, you know, and it was such a thrill to say, I met that pope already.
[00:11:09] Speaker A: And when you talk to him, he spoke to him in such a gentle voice. It was something very personal and very interested. He would ask questions. He was a very gentle person. And John Paul II and Pope Benedict, they were both bishops and very important voices at the Second Vatican Council. They really were implementing the council.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: And, you know, an interesting thing about this conclave that is coming up is that all of the cardinals, they were all ordained priests after the council. This is the first time that's happened.
[00:11:39] Speaker A: That's a significant turn of history. Now we're moving on. This is. We're still in that period of reception of the council, but now it's all post Vatican ii.
[00:11:47] Speaker B: You know, we're really going to catch the spirit of the council, I think. And they always said it takes a while for the spirit of the council to catch on with the body of the Church. And I think that's what we see.
[00:11:57] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. I think we come then to the election of Pope Francis and I again there, too. We had the chance to plan Pope Benedict kind of surprised us announcing his resignation and he gave us some time. So the cardinals knew they were going into it, we knew to expect it, but boy, that too turned out to be a surprise. I did not know the name Bergogli.
[00:12:19] Speaker B: Yeah, no. As a matter of fact, I was thinking back and I remember that we did it centerfold in the tablet of all of the possible candidates for the papacy and Bergoglio was not there.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: Well, you know the old expression, he who walks into the conclave as Papabile comes out as a cardinal.
[00:12:35] Speaker B: That's right, exactly right, yep.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: So you never know what's going to happen. And I think you get the impression that during these times, like the time before when they were reflecting prayerfully on what are the needs of the Church. It's. It seemed that Cardinal Begoglio caught the attention of the other cardinals as they were looking at where the Church needed to go.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: He had been the second choice to Ratzinger, you know, that's what they all say. But nobody expected him the next time because he had, he had aged, you know, like he was 76 or so and thought that they would elect somebody of that age.
[00:13:11] Speaker A: And yet he came on. I'll tell you something silly. I don't know if you remember this. I was an auxiliary bishop on Long island and Catholic Faith Network, the television station in the diocese of Rockville Center, I think at that time it was still called Telecare covered the conclave. We were waiting for that ballot. And the silliest thing, there was a pigeon sitting on the smokestack.
And for the longest time all the media, everybody was looking at this bird sitting on the smokestack.
[00:13:43] Speaker B: Now that you say that.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: And we were waiting and waiting and getting. It was like a light, light hearted moments in a very serious moment. And of course that I believe turned out to be the ballot that elected Francis. The bird flew up and then eventually the white smoke came.
[00:13:59] Speaker B: You know, we were in the studio at NET TV at that time when the smoke came out and Monsignor John Strinkowski was with us. He was going to be the commentator on television. And when the name Begolio came, he was stunned. And you know, he's, he's a, he was, spent many, many years at the Vatican and he just said, I can't believe they elected this guy a Pope from the Western world, you know.
[00:14:20] Speaker A: Yeah, you, it's funny, some people keep saying, do you think there'll be an American Pope? Well, technically speaking, in the eyes of the world they did.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: We had one, yes, he was an.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: American Pope, he's from the continents. But usually the question is posed, meaning somebody from the U.S. but yes, this is somebody from Argentina. And again, it was another surprise. Maybe the cardinals knew something going in. I don't know. They're not going to talk about that. But for a good part of the world, that was a surprise.
[00:14:50] Speaker B: Oh yeah, that was a big surprise. And, and I think we're probably ready for another surprise. You know, you never know what the cardinals are thinking. They're meeting in secrecy right now and they're talking about what are the needs of the Church at this time. And, and there may be somebody that fulfills all of their wishes. And we've never heard of him.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: You know, and another thing is that he appointed from unlikely places, so he really extended the reach in a very positive way because there's a greater international diversity, if you will. They come from all over the world and maybe not some of the predominant cities and places. So this is going to bring a different perspective, wouldn't you think?
[00:15:31] Speaker B: Yeah, who knows that we have a cardinal from Vietnam and we have a cardinal from Thailand and a cardinal from Indonesia. You know, they come from the far farest parts of the world. They're going to bring a unique perspective just the way John Paul brought a unique perspective of the Church in Poland and he brought his own perspective of what the church under siege like that. And now we have these other cardinals from all over the world who really, some of them come from places of great poverty and they see that, you know, the periphery that Pope Francis, so we spoke, I think we're going to see a Pope elected who's probably very much in the spirit of Pope Francis, somebody who's going to be going out to the peripheries like that, somebody who's going to have great sense of pastoral care about him because these men are Pope Francis's men, that he admired them in their style. And you think that. I think it's going to be somebody that's in the same style as Pope Francis was.
[00:16:23] Speaker A: You know, I am a great believer that at least in modern history, at least in the last century or so, God gives us the Pope we need for the times. I'm firmly convinced of that. And I don't know what the need for are going to be because it's not just the need for the church in 2025, but presumably this hope, please, God will serve for a number of years and so much can change. And so God has a way, I think, of seeing the needs. So for example, I can go back to John XXIII and Paul VI and the needs that brought about the council and completed the council. Then, as you see, John Paul I. Yeah. Coming from a church under siege and a man who himself had suffered greatly, he was the voice we needed. In 1980s and 90s, the theme of his papacy was crossing the threshold of hope. He started right away thinking about the new millennium, but he didn't think of it just as, you know, a change of numbers, but he saw this as a very important moment. And so I think he was the right man for the job in those times.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: I think, you know, we're looking at somebody who needs to be a peacemaker because terrible wars have broken out, like in Ukraine and in the Holy Land, and they're really very much on our minds, I think. So the next man has to be a peacemaker who's willing to get in there and talk about peace and the need for it. And also, Pope Francis set the standard with laudato si about the environment and the care for God's creation. Somebody has to continue, I think, along in that vein. And at the same time, there are reforms at the Vatican. Among the courier that Pope Francis began. And I don't think he felt that he had completed that test.
[00:18:06] Speaker A: No, no, I don't think so. Yeah.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: For us to come in and take that bull by the horn, I think.
[00:18:12] Speaker A: Another issue that's going to be very important. This is really one of the key issues of the papacy. This is one of the major jobs of the Pope, is to build up the unity of the Church. And that is exactly what the Pope is to do. I believe it was Paul VI in his dying days, he celebrated, I believe it was the feast of Peter and Paul. And he said, you are the Christ. And that was, for him, the theme of his papacy. I had to keep saying that every Pope has to. That's the job, to say, you are the Christ, to point to the fact of Jesus Christ, to profess Jesus Christ, God and man risen from the dead, and to respond to Jesus's command to Peter, feed my lambs, tend my sheep, feed my lambs. So to build up, to proclaim Jesus Christ and keep Jesus Christ as the union of the church. And for good or ill, over the centuries, the popes have done that. That's the work of the Holy Spirit. I also think, you know, we are in a world with tremendous divisiveness, as you say, wow. We need that sense of peace in the world. But even locally, we've gotten to a point where we are so divided on political lines and even in the Church. I had a conversation today with a delegation from Ukraine, and they were asking me about, you know, Catholic bishops and what sway we have over policy and government. I explained to them, many of us in the church today, many Catholics identify themselves first as Democrats or Republicans. And yet as Catholics, we have to speak always and everywhere about the reality of the gospel. We have to proclaim fidelity to the gospel. That's the first thing before political alliances.
[00:19:54] Speaker B: But, you know, those factions go all the way back to the New Testament, to the Acts of the Apostles. Oh, they do, yeah.
[00:19:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:00] Speaker B: But are you with Peter? Are you with Paul? Are you with.
You know, we have to come to that sense of unity. We're one in Christ. And as we go into this conclave, we can't look at ourselves as Republicans and Democrats, but united as Catholics. You know, the factions in the Church now are serious. You're right. And we have some serious problems that we need a unifier, somebody who's going to bring us all together.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: Yes. Pope Francis kind of widened the embrace with the synod and he's been asking us to walk together, to walk together as pilgrims of hope. I think that's going to have to be unpacked, perhaps in a new way. Somebody asked me in one of the interviews recently, so, Bishop, are you hoping for somebody to be exactly like Pope Francis? And my answer was, the next Pope has to be his own man. But I think there are points of continuity, and I think you see this even when you look again, I'm talking about my conscious lifetime. My lifetime's a little longer. But as I look at John Paul ii, Benedict, and now Francis, there are moments of continuity, but each man has a certain style. And I think the next Pope has to be himself.
[00:21:10] Speaker B: And I know you're fond of the expressions, the splendor of truth and the joy of the Gospel.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: That's what we have to exude as Catholics. And I think that's the spirit that the new Pope has got to have that splendid truth, that commitment to truth of the church and at the same time, the joy of being alive.
[00:21:28] Speaker A: Thank you for picking up on that. That's right. The joy of the gospel and the splendor of hope. You know, of course, the joy of the gospel was Pope Francis's first apostolic exhortation to me. You know, I was a young bishop, an auxiliary bishop, and then when I became the Bishop of Columbus, that was sort of my guidebook. That was my go to book. I would look at that Very, very often.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: You're fond of quoting those terms. You spread that around the diocese. I think that's a good thing.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: So, yeah, enjoy the gospel. But Pope John Paul, one of his major encyclicals was the Splendor of Truth. Veritatist splendor. You picked up. I really appreciate this. The point is the joy of the gospel and the splendor of truth are the same thing. They're intertwined. They're not two different realities. The joy of the gospel is the splendor of truth and the splendor of truth is the joy of the gospel. So yeah, there's that continuity, but again, there's a freshness. The Pope brings his own experience in proclaiming those realities, but also he does so responding to the needs of the times.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with you. And it's going to be a very exciting week beginning next Wednesday. You know, people will be running to the TVs and looking for that smoke to come out and hoping that it's going to be white. I think we might be in for a little surprise. It might be a few more days. I think that we're used to. I don't know if they're going to come to a quick conclusion here.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: I was asked I'd want to interview how many days. I thought, I'll tell you what I guessed. But you what, what's your guess?
[00:22:55] Speaker B: My guess is three days.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: Okay. We're about the same.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:59] Speaker A: I said either Friday or Saturday. I would say either late Friday or early Saturday. That's just stabbing the dog.
[00:23:03] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. It's all a stab in the dark. You know what we. All of this prognostication that's taking place because we don't know what's in the cardinals minds, you know, and they stay away from the press at this point, they're not going to talk to the press about these things. So all the things you hear the press talking about, it's. It's all speculation. And as you say, it's in the hands of the Holy Spirit. And hopefully he gives us the man that we need for these times.
[00:23:27] Speaker A: Like you said, Cardinal Dolan tells this story that at the last conclave he said a Franciscan friar gave them spiritual conferences before. And he said, let me make this easy for you. The Holy Spirit has already chosen the new Pope. Just to figure it out.
That's a pretty good way to put it. I think one of the things we said this before, why it may take some time is again, they don't know each other in the same way. Because the scope is so much wider. So I think this will be interesting. It will be interesting.
[00:23:59] Speaker B: Yeah. I think you're right. I think that they come from all over the world and, you know, they come with their own perspectives. It's not a homogeneous group. And I think it might take some time to come to a consensus. So.
[00:24:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, we in the us, in the west, we look at the church in one very distinct way, the experience of the church. We look about the issues of vocations and Mass attendance and all of that. We look about at the modern society. But there are parts of the world where they're experiencing tremendous growth.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: Right, right. You're right. You know, here in our diocese, at least, you know, we face problems that are unique to us. You know, we can't keep all these churches around. Not as many people are coming to church anymore. That' not the problem. You're right in for a lot of other people. And, and especially when you see some of these from the church in Asia, and these are still young churches, you know, and they're certainly not where we're at. And all of these perspectives come together in the conclave. It's going to be very interesting to see what comes out of that.
[00:25:00] Speaker A: So it was great having the chance to talk with you today to reminisce a little bit about some of the past experiences of covering conclaves and the experience excitement, if you will, at the week that's coming up. And certainly we invoke that gift of the Holy Spirit not only on the cardinals, but on the whole church.
[00:25:19] Speaker B: Yes. And we all should pray for that. You know, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And we know that the man is elected is going to be the right man.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: That's right. We'll count to. We'll support him. Thank you for joining me for this week's edition of Big City Catholics. Thank you, Ed, for being with us at Wilkinson of the Tablet and of Desales Media. And thanks to all of you for listening. Please join us again next week. Who knows, we may be reporting on a new pope or we may still be in the waiting mode. But please do join us again next week for another edition of Big City Catholics. Until then, let's pray. Asking during this Easter season the intercession of our Blessed Mother and sharing the good news of the Resurrection, rejoicing it with Mary as we pray the Regina Cheli Queen of Heaven. Rejoice, Alleluia, for the son whom you merited to bear. Alleluia has risen as he said, alleluia Pray for us to God. Hallelujah. Rejoice and be glad, O Virgin Mary. Hallelujah. For the Lord is truly risen. Alleluia. Alleluia. Alleluia. And may the blessing of Almighty God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit come upon you this day. Remain with you forever and ever. Amen.
