Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome back to another edition of our diocesan podcast, Big City Catholics, with Bishop Robert Brennan, the diocesan Bishop of Brooklyn, and myself, Father Christopher Henyu. Today we're joined with Father Joseph Zwasta, Diocese of Brooklyn priest who's been serving as the academic dean for these last five years, starting now his sixth year at Pope St. John the 23rd National Seminary, located in Weston. Father Z, it's great to have you on with us today. We have a very important topic to talk about regarding assisted suicide, which there's legislation that's possibly to be passed here in New York State, but we'll begin in prayer. In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Amen. This is a prayer for Life by Pope St. John Paul II. O Mary, bright dawn of the new world, Mother of the living, to you do we entrust the cause of life. Look down, O Mother, upon the vast numbers of babies not allowed to be born of the poor whose lives are made difficult of men and women who are victims of brutal violence, of the elderly and the sick killed by indifference or out of misguided mercy. Grant that all who believe in your son may proclaim the gospel of life with honesty and love to the people of our time. Obtain for them the grace to accept that gospel as a gift ever new the joy of celebrating it with gratitude throughout their lives and the courage to bear witness to it resolutely in order to build together with people of goodwill the civilization of truth and love. To the praise and glory of God, the Creator and Lover of life. Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and whoever shall be world without end. Amen. In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Amen.
[00:01:47] Speaker C: Father Zwasta, welcome to big City Catholics. You're always a great resource to us and we're at a point in some New York State legislative history that we need to take up a very serious concern and I'm glad that we could have this discussion today.
[00:02:01] Speaker A: Thank you very much for having me, Bishop.
[00:02:02] Speaker C: Glad you're here. So listen, over the weekend I had a great visit to Queen of Peace residence with the Little Sisters of the Ur do a great job of caring for our elderly people just like the also in Brooklyn Diocese, the Carmelite Sisters for the Aged and infirm do the same. It was jubilee for families, grandparents and the elderly. We had a special celebration recognizing the dignity and the value the importance of the elderly in our society and particularly in our families. You would look at grandparents, for example, people of wisdom. People who've been caring for us along the way, and especially the more infirmed, there's still a tremendous gift that they bring. Pope Leo had the celebration over the weekend for the jubilee of families, grandparents and the elderly. And he spoke about grandparents are the memory of the family. So it was poignant to me that we had this beautiful celebration.
And yet at the very same time, in the highest levels of the New York state government, there are very active movements toward what I would call very blatantly euthanasia.
And it takes on different language, assisted suicide, dying with dignity. But the bottom line is that we have right now very deliberate and active campaign to promote euthanasia. So it gets veiled in this other language, but the reality is the same, right?
[00:03:43] Speaker A: It's a very good point. And this manipulation of language to me is very similar to the conversation around abortion, which we have talked about before, where advocates of abortion don't want to call it that. They want to call it choice. They want to call it bodily autonomy or women's rights. They want to use different language to try to manipulate people, I think, into supporting these ideas or these practices. And a similar thing is happening, I think, around this particular issue of physician assisted suicide. But the bill, it's interesting, it's called medical aid in dying. And that's become sort of a favored way of describing this medical aid. The idea that you would give lethal pills to someone with the purpose of ending their life, but call that medical aid, call that medicine. It's the opposite of medicine. Medicine is given to someone to cure them, and this is given to someone to end their life. So the manipulation of language is very concerning. I think this is part of why they've been able to get a good amount of support for it, because they're obscuring what's really happening. And they're trying to say this is something that is intended to help the person, to help the person to die with dignity, to alleviate suffering, et cetera. But in reality, what they're doing is they're. What they would be doing if this legislation goes forward is to give people these lethal drugs to end their life.
[00:05:05] Speaker C: Now, you know, you mentioned that, where it gets its support. So it does have some degree of support.
Interestingly, though, enough legislatively, there's this push really to get this done very quickly before the end of the legislative session in the next two weeks. So this is a critical time.
And while it passed in the assembly, there were a number of votes on the Democrat side where it has the greatest support that were against it. So it doesn't have a uniform partisan support. There are enough legislators who are either sufficiently concerned or at least who have their doubts about it that in the assembly they voted no. And that may be the case in the Senate as well.
So actually a number of the Democratic assembly people from Brooklyn and Queens voted against it. And yet the there was still enough of a majority to move forward. So now the bill goes to the Senate. There are a few, again, some from Brooklyn and Queens who have expressed enough concern that we're hoping there would be a no vote. And I think there are still some that are on the fence undecided. So it is kind of important that they can hear from us about these concerns. But make no mistake, is this real push to get it done quickly? I think that's how gives the appearance of having support, because it's really the rapidity of it. It's been talked about for a couple of years now in different sessions of the legislature, but it could never get that push. And I think they were able to get the push. And so now it's like a snowball. It's rolling down the hill.
[00:06:44] Speaker A: Yeah, that's very concerning. From what I read, there are only four hours of debate, I think, in terms of the full assembly in the consideration of this bill. And with something of such, you know, consequence for our society, we would hope that there would be a much more robust conversation, at least before passing such legislation. And as you mentioned before, we have, you know, in other countries and other states in our country similar legislation has been passed. So we kind of know certain things that can go wrong with this legislation, even if one is supportive of this legislation, which of course we are totally against it as Catholics. But even if someone were to say I support this because I think that there are a lot of good restrictions, we see that in other countries where this similar legislation has been passed, other states where this has been passed, that it is a very slippery slope where maybe the initial legislation has certain protections and guardrails, but then later on subsequent bills are passed that take away those safeguards. So this sort of legislation needs careful consideration. And I think, as you say, Bishop, there's a rush to get this passed because there's a perception perhaps that they can get the votes to pass legislation quickly without the due consideration that it requires.
[00:08:03] Speaker C: And in that vein of slippery slope, there are certain consequences of it. There are questions you have to ask about free will we see in other places, in other states out west, for example, or in Canada, some Canada, I think in 2016 passed the law. And since then it's been expanded a number of times.
What starts off as being somebody's choice, at some point it becomes something of a responsibility. That's the responsible thing to do. And sometimes it becomes something that is the only practical thing to do. Questions that really need to be asked who, first of all, what constitutes free will? When you've gotten devastating news, when you're in pain, and when you're being made to feel by society, by your family as a real burden, how free are you? That's a question. You know, in one state, this goes back a few years, I remember somebody telling me a story about a family member who had surgery.
One of the effects of these surgeries, you go through a period of depression and the patient didn't want to eat, was turning food away. And the staff at the place where they were saying, well, you know, don't push the person to eat. That's their choice. Oh, it's not really their choice. It's an effect of the illness, it's an effect of the surgery, it's an effect of the drugs you might be on. You may not be free. Another concern of mine is has to do with medical coverage, insurance coverage and reimbursements. You know, what gets covered? If there's a cheaper alternative, you know, you don't need to provide all this surgery or care or medical intervention.
We can take care of this in a couple of hours. And then the third is on an institutional level. We certainly see it in our Catholic health institutions, but really across the board, you're seeing more pressure by the state trying to decrease long term care. And, and so what gets reimbursed? The nursing homes have seen reimbursement getting smaller and smaller and smaller. Greater regulation and less reimbursement. That's a form of coercion. And what becomes of those other possible choices? If this is a choice, are the other choices really achievable?
[00:10:22] Speaker A: There's been so much discussion lately about federal funding for healthcare and state funding for healthcare. And again, we look to our neighbors to the north in Canada, where they've had a physician assisted suicide now for several years. And all of these things are coming to fruition where people are being pressured to accept this option of euthanasia rather than what they think of as being a burden to their families or to the state in providing health care. And so that slippery slope is certainly something that is happening in Canada in states where this similar legislation has been in effect for several years. So these are real dangers that are going to happen in New York if they pass this legislation.
[00:11:09] Speaker B: I think too we could bring to the conversation as priests, as pastors, our experiences dealing with people in hospice care who are sick and dying, coming to the church, seeking God's mercy, seeking consolation in the sacraments and power in the gift and the grace of the sacraments, and dying truly dying with dignity, truly dying with grace and dying in that act of suffering, uniting that suffering with the cross, uniting that suffering with our God and Savior who has conquered it all. And sadly, as you were mentioning, there's a vulnerable people here. The church, we fight for the vulnerable. And this is one of those times in which we're called to give voice to the vulnerable. It is truly the vulnerable populations that will feel the brunt of this the hardest.
[00:11:55] Speaker C: I think you make a very good point that's exactly right about the vulnerable. But we all, as priests, we've seen the time surrounding the end of life is sometimes very, very difficult. But there are moments of tremendous grace. And Pope St. John Paul II used to say, suffering releases love. Would that it was always the case. I know that sometimes that's not the case, but boy, we've seen some beautiful examples.
Families coming together in love and a faith that it really does make a difference that we unite ourselves with the Lord. How many people have said to you, I didn't have my faith, I couldn't enjoy this. You know, here's just one other point about so called slippery slope. We often get accused of being lamist with slippery slope. And yet experience has proven that to be the case. So I'm going back Now, I believe 50 years ago when the debates were happening around abortion and this whole culture of death was even beginning and the question was raised, well, what else will this lead to? And euthanasia was one of the examples of this leading. And people in the early 1970s said, that's ridiculous, that's ridiculous that you would equate abortion with euthanasia. That would never happen. Here we are having this discussion. The slippery slope is very real and history has proven that to be the case. You know, and even the slippery slope in terms of abortion there too, it was a choice, but now it's not even really a choice. It's like other options are being taken away little by little. And people of conscience are attempts constantly to force people of conscience to do or to support abortions. The slippery slope has proven itself to be more like a gravitational pull that you can't deny then some exaggeration.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: There's an irony too in that we have A crisis in our society of suicide, of those who are, who have mental illness and are depressed and they are attempted to suicide. I was driving the other day, getting onto the Verrazano Bridge and in traffic of course, and I noticed, happen to notice there was a sign that said as you get onto the bridge, trouble coping, question mark. Don't struggle alone. And it gave the suicide hotline number which is 988. But that's become, there's, there's such a crisis of suicide in our society that we've established a hotline where people who are attempted to suicide can call and hopefully get some counseling that will talk them out of it and help them. The idea that we have this crisis of suicide in our society and at the same time we have this legislation that is going to enable suicide, it's just, it's so inconsistent. And as, again, as we've seen in Canada, I just saw a statistic that a very large percentage of those who received the so called medical aid in dying did so because of loneliness. That was the reason that they cited for wanting medical aid and dying. That is the road that we are potentially going down in our state. And that's very, very troubling.
[00:14:59] Speaker C: You know, two points. First of all, that suicide crisis, you're exactly right, it defies logic because what are we saying our society is trying to fight? To their credit, we're trying to fight that suicide crisis. We're not alone in that fight. Some of the people supporting assisted suicide would argue the same thing. However, what's the logic once you say that some lives are not worth living or that some circumstances make suicide a viable option? Well then what's that to sell somebody who's suffering terribly from saying, well, I fit that kind of. You've just given validation to those feelings which are very serious. And you know, we ought to be doing things to promote why life is valuable is always worth it. The second thing that you raise that sense of loneliness, that's where we come in. I think now there are two challenges to us who oppose it. First of all, there's the legislative challenge. We really have to make our voices known. Whether we use the resources of New York State Catholic Conference. Search in any search engine for New York State Catholic Conference and you'll get all the information you need and the ability to help you get in touch with these senators and then eventually the governor passes the Senate. We have to get those messages. We have a responsibility to voice out concerns. But you know what, just like with abortion, we don't just say it's wrong. This becomes a call to us to meet people in their need and in their suffering, to be attentive to those who are ill, to be attentive to those who may feel alone, to, to try to support, whether it be institutions or agencies who care for the elderly or the terminally ill, to help families. You know, you talk about respite care. How can we help families for whom caregiving is a 24, 7 responsibility? There are many different things that this is going to be a wake up call to all of us to say, how can we enhance the life and the experience? How can we support people, individuals who are sick and their families?
[00:17:12] Speaker A: In these days, I know that Cardinal Dolan has been inviting certain legislators to come visit Calvary Hospice in the Bronx. And there are so many wonderful hospice facilities, some of which are Catholic explicitly, but others are not. But all of which do offer that, you know, truly, that palliative care that we talk about, that the which is making someone who is dying comfortable. And today it is possible to pretty much eliminate all pain that someone might experience in their last days. That's something, again, that people don't necessarily know as they're considering whether to support legislation such as medical aid and dying. We can, even in those difficult last moments for someone who is dying, we have the ability to, to make them comfortable and to really, truly allow them to die with dignity in terms of a natural death. And so those are wonderful alternatives, those hospice care facilities. And there's even in home hospice care, that's an option for people and we have the resources to truly serve someone in terms of their material needs, their physical needs, but as Father Chris was saying before, also their spiritual needs. That's such an important part of our ministry as Catholic clergy is to bring especially the sacrament of the anointing and viaticum and the Sacrament of confession to those who are in their last days to prepare them to meet the Lord after their natural death. So we need to really, as you say, Bishop, invest in both, I think, the natural and supernatural resources that people need to truly die with dignity.
[00:18:49] Speaker B: If I may now, as we wrap up this incredibly important topic, some of the action steps. What is it that we can do, Father Zwasta? What are the ways in which we can locate our representatives?
[00:19:00] Speaker A: So right now the legislation is being considered by, I think, a committee of the state Senate, and then it possibly will come up for a vote in the full state Senate. So those who are listening to us, if you could contact your state senator now, there's a way in which you can figure out who your state senator is. I was just looking at this yesterday. The parish I live in in Howard beach, we actually this particular parish is represented by three different state senators, depending on where you live within the particular parish. So it can be a little tricky sometimes to figure that out. But there are maps you can look at, put in your address and determine who your state senator is and then either call or email.
Or there are different ways in which you can contact your state senator to let them know that you are a constituent and you oppose this legislation. And you want your state senator to oppose this legislation and also to contact the governor, because even if the state senate passes the legislation, the the governor could possibly veto it. So we hold out hope that that might take place. So contact both your particular state senator and Governor Hochul.
[00:20:05] Speaker C: There are different organizations. New York State Catholic Conference is one of them. But you can just type the words in the search engine. Find my state senator, New York State. It's as easy as I think putting in a zip code or putting in an address. So it's gotten pretty easy to locate a US State senator.
[00:20:22] Speaker B: We certainly have to make our voices heard and our opinions known. This is a great resource. Bishop. Thank you for bringing us together to talk about this important topic. Thank you, Father Zwasta as well for joining us again. Bishop, perhaps you could end with a prayer.
[00:20:34] Speaker C: And this weekend we celebrate the great feast of Pentecost, bringing to a close these 50 days of joyful celebration of the resurrection of the Lord in a very particular way, Easter season. We pray these days between the Ascension and Easter feast of Pentecost for that gift of the Holy Spirit. And boy, do we ever need it. On this topic, we need the guidance of the Holy Spirit to help us along the way. So I'll pray as I did last week, the prayer of St. Augustine for the Holy Spirit. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Breathe in me, O Holy Spirit, that my thoughts may be all holy. Act in me, O Holy Spirit, that my work too may be holy. Draw my heart, O Holy Spirit, that I love but what is holy. Strengthen me, O Holy Spirit, to defend all that is holy. Guard me then, O Holy Spirit, that I always may be holy. Amen. And may Almighty God bless you and your family, the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit. Amen.
[00:21:39] Speaker B: Thank you, Bishop, for the beautiful prayer and thank you all again for listening participating in our weekly DAs and podcast, Big City Catholics. Please make sure your voices are heard. Please continue to pray for the dignity of life and for those who are suffering at this very difficult time. God bless you.
[00:21:55] Speaker A: See you next week.
