Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:10 Hello, and welcome to another edition of Big City Catholic Som Bishop Robert Brennan. A couple of weeks ago, I had the chance to sit with two fine young people, Ashley McKinley and Zach Davis, who published the weekly podcast, Jesuitical part of the America Media distribution. And so we had the chance to talk about life here in Brooklyn this week. I would like to share that conversation with you on our own podcast.
Speaker 2 00:00:45 Joining us in studio is Bishop Robert Brennan. Bishop Brennan is the bishop of the Diocese of Brooklyn and the host of the Big City Catholics podcast. Welcome to Judge Whittle. Bishop,
Speaker 1 00:00:56 I'm glad to be here. I've been hearing a lot about you, and I'm looking forward to this conversation.
Speaker 3 00:01:00 I, I feel like, um, you've been following me a little bit, um, because I grew up in Columbus, Ohio. You were most recently bishop there, and then you came to, came to Brooklyn and I was in my group chat with my family texting and be like, huh, we're stealing, uh, stealing your bishop. Sorry about that. <laugh>. And they were very upset about that. Do you miss Ohio often?
Speaker 1 00:01:18 I miss Ohio. I have to be honest, I love Brooklyn and Queens
Speaker 2 00:01:22 Because you, you grew up, you're a New Yorker. I'm
Speaker 1 00:01:24 A New Yorker.
Speaker 2 00:01:24 I grew up in Ohio. Still your
Speaker 1 00:01:25 Heart. But Ohio stole my heart. You're right. They really did. Um, I, I, I loved it. I used to tell people when I was in Ohio, they say, what do you miss about Long Island? And I would say, well, I miss my family and I miss the ocean. And now they say, what do you miss about O Ohio? And I say, I missed the open roads. <laugh>. Yeah. Columbus, um, had a diversity of lifestyle. And Zach, you would know this, so you had the city, I mean, it's certainly not as dense as New York City or Brooklyn and Queens, but you had the city field, but you had the suburban field, sort of like where you were, and then you had the rural field, and that, that was great. I, I enjoyed all those different components of life.
Speaker 2 00:02:05 I'm curious about the church in, in that part of the country, you mentioned, you know, the diversity of rural and urban. Um, but is, are there concerns in the parishes and in the diocese that you noticed there that are distinctive kind of the, the questions and challenges we face in as Northeast Catholics?
Speaker 1 00:02:23 First of all, one big difference between Long Island, where I was from and, and in Brooklyn and Ohio is, um, the population, the Catholic populations. So whereas here with just about half, um, in Ohio, we're about 10%. Yeah. 10% Catholic. Um, that said, it's a very strong minority. It's a, people want to know what Catholics are thinking and what the Catholic Church is doing. I used to make a joke out of it. I arrived during Lent and I said, the fish fry culture <laugh> was huge.
Speaker 3 00:03:04 I was so sad when I moved to New York, and I feel like there's just, it's not a thing here, it's just not a thing. The Lent and the Knight of Columbus fish fry on Fridays during Lent. It was like, it's a treasured childhood tradition of mine. And I got here and I'm like, where do I find the fish? You live next to an ocean. What's going
Speaker 1 00:03:20 On, <laugh>? It's, yeah. So, so that was a culture and, and it crossed not just among the Catholics. So the Catholics left an imprint beat with that. Even I used to joke, um, the fast food places like McDonald's on their marquee, they would have limited time specials, Friday fish sandwiches
Speaker 3 00:03:38 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yep.
Speaker 1 00:03:40 It, it just was, it was such a big part of, of life there. And I think that's one way. It's simple, it's subtle, but it's, it just shows one way that the Catholic church, the people of God had an influence, had an contribution to life in Ohio.
Speaker 2 00:03:59 Hmm. Well, Zach could talk about Ohio all day. Yeah. But I want, I wanna bring us back to Brooklyn
Speaker 3 00:04:03 <laugh>. Ok. We're, we're Ashley. We should remind our listeners, Zach, this is Ashley and I are, uh, this is our diocese, right. This's where we live. This is where we worship.
Speaker 2 00:04:10 Um, and yeah, so one thing, when you look at the Diocese of Brooklyn, it, it has to be close to like one of the mo most ethnically diverse diocese in the country. Like I think there are over 30 languages said it regularly at masses throughout every Sunday throughout, yeah. Which is just wild to think about. How, how, how do you, in your first, you've only been here for a little over a year, but how do you get to know a parish that big and des diverse?
Speaker 1 00:04:36 It's, it's, it's both a challenge, but, uh, an adventure and excitement. Um, so, uh, yeah, this is a different kind of diversity. This is more of the diversity of what we mean when we hear the word or say the word diversity. Um, and you know, what's interesting here is it's not just that we have parishes that express different nationalities, but even within the parishes mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so parishes themselves are very diverse. So in Queens, some of the pastors will say our zip codes are among the most diverse in the country, have more, um, ethnic populations. Um, you know, it's not like we have an Italian speaking parish or Spanish speaking Paris to Chinese speak in parish in the same parish. You have all three languages, um, for mass every week.
Speaker 3 00:05:28 How do you staff a resource parishes like
Speaker 1 00:05:31 That? That's a good question. That's a scary thought. Yeah. Um, certainly you, what you need from pastors are people who can pull together the gifts of many different people. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, um, and, and so that you can get that sense of Paris unity. That's, that's one piece of it. Um, fortunately we do have some multilingual priests and, um, and, and staff people. We have some Chinese priests who speak Spanish and English. We have some Haitian priests who speak Spanish. In, in English. We have English priests who speak multiple languages. That's, that's a great help.
Speaker 2 00:06:09 I think a lot of people might be used to seeing, uh, parishes where they have, you know, a couple of English masses, a couple of Spanish masses, um, but those parishioners might not actually interact all that much. Um, I'm wondering if you've witnessed any parishes in, in the diocese where they, they are catering to a diverse community, but there's true, true community in integration among the different groups.
Speaker 1 00:06:32 I've seen a few places where that, that seems to be happening, happening. It's, it's not easy. You know, one of the things I have to catch myself sometimes I'll be at, at Madison, you want in, in the name of trying to be inclusive and welcome people in. You want to do a little bit more in Spanish. But then you realize, okay, I'm doing it in English and I'm doing it in Spanish, but now I'm leaving out mm-hmm. <affirmative> these other languages. So you have to be attentive to that. Um, but I, I've seen a few parishes where the team, they work very hard at pulling it all together and, and, and, and do a great job. But, you know, you, you made me think of something else. Even what we call the English speaking part of the parish is itself very diverse. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, sometimes the English speaking part of the parish is really Filipino, um, or a large African-American contingent. So that has a certain spirituality as well that that can't be lost or forgotten simply because we speak the same language as, uh, spirituality. And
Speaker 3 00:07:33 What's like best practices that you like, try to encourage within parishes to like, on the one hand have sort of like culturally relevant ministries for, for different groups, but also ways like of bringing them together. Uh, what does like a parish identity look like
Speaker 1 00:07:48 Then? Well, to be honest, I'm still learning. I'm learning from the parishes, uh, what they're doing. You know, this is an age old reality because, um, this goes back to 30 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus. I often say Corinth is a city very much like New York, especially Brooklyn and Queens, where you had people from all over the world were passing through Corinth. Well, there you got Brooklyn, Queens and you're trying to figure out how we'd bring all those cultural realities together. A lot of parishes celebrate the important feast of the different communities. And when it works well, the rest of the parish comes to those feasts. Um, there are certain things, especially like around Holy Week where they will try to do things all together. So it's that balancing act of maintaining the unique spirituality of one particular community, but also reminding us that at the same time that there's that unity in the diversity.
Speaker 2 00:08:49 So one, one kind of leftover effect of this history of Brooklyn, where you had all these different groups coming, the Irish, the German, the Italian, having their parish. We have a lot of churches <laugh>. Um, there where I live, I can probably walk to 10
Speaker 1 00:09:05 Oh sure.
Speaker 2 00:09:06 10, 11 churches that are, you know, large buildings. And, and the reality is there are less Catholics going to mass on Sundays now. Um, so I'm wondering what is the purpose of a parish today? What are some of the hard decisions that the diocese might have to make around, um, these communities and these buildings? What are you thinking about all that?
Speaker 1 00:09:27 That's a compensation that we're having. There are two factors that lead to some of these changes. One is now the newer group of immigrants. And actually some of the people from other parts of the US moving in tend not to be Catholic. And so you had some of your real Catholic strongholds, um, that are seeing a diversity in the population, but they're not Catholics. So you have a lot of churches and not a lot of people. But then you also have the reality of people who aren't practicing their faith. And so that too brings down the numbers. Uh, we don't have a big planning process going on where we're going to close X amounts of parishes in the next 10 years. That's not the plan. But what we are doing is looking at the each region and saying, how can we work together? So we've been combining parishes over the course of the years. Um, that's been happening. Sometimes it happens that two parishes just collaborate under one pastor. Sometimes it reaches a point where we end up actually closing a parish. And, um, even to the point of selling the site, the worship site,
Speaker 3 00:10:40 I tend to be a bit more ruthless in my like, view of these things. Cuz I'm like, building's empty. Those are resources we could use in a much more, I don't know, responsible way, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> than paying for the air conditioning or the electricity or, or the property, whatever. Like, I see it and I'm like, we gotta close it. That's not what the church is not about a building. And you know, the building is obviously important to a lot of people over time, and I probably need more patience on how to think about that or communicate that. How do you, when someone's like in front of you, like, how could you close my parish that I've been going to for generations, even though it, there's only 25 people here. There's still a lot of emotional involvement in that.
Speaker 1 00:11:20 Oh, absolutely. You know, these are people that say, well, this is where I was baptized, this is where, um, I raised my children. And let's be honest, that was the language we spoke for a long time too. We spoke the language of the parish. Yeah. And so we really, for years and years and years, built up parish identity. Um, we are living in a new era in the life of the church, and we have to start thinking more about being Catholic, about being church. You, you make a good point, Zack. Um, uh, I would often say the church is not a museum. Yeah. Nor are we a real estate agency, but we are, um, we are a living organism. Um, where I have had to deal with this well in Columbus mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, we had a county way in the south where I said, we, we, we can't afford the real estate to maintain seven campuses mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But we, what we wanna do is build up Catholic life. That's another thing. There's a big shift. You know, you speak for a new generation that maybe isn't necessarily tied to parishes, but going to where you are fed. Totally.
Speaker 1 00:12:31 And so how do we build up Catholic life and in, in this new era, we have to be a little more nimble. We have to meet people where they are, walk with people along the way. Um, but while you do that, you're also respecting, maybe encouraging people to, to, to make that next step. You, it's, it, it is a fine line.
Speaker 3 00:12:54 Hmm. And you've gotta be the bad guy. I imagine in a lot of yes. Conversations.
Speaker 1 00:12:58 Sometimes you have to do it. But, but it's important to do it with respect for people. And it's important to do it by listening to people and having the, that conversation. I have found that other bishops who've had to do this and other places where I've had to do it, people may not agree with you, but if the conversation's been had, people will understand. Yeah. Yeah. And, but the other reality is when, when is it not healthy for a community to be so small and to become turned in on itself? Isn't it healthier that we can pull together? Um, isn't it more, um, uplifting when you go to church and there's a crowd of people around you?
Speaker 3 00:13:38 Like as a young person that moves to Brooklyn? You, you, okay, okay. I landed in this neighborhood. I, I Google, we're as close as Catholic church. I walk over and then there's 15 people. Everybody's got three pews of themselves. That, that is so disheartening.
Speaker 1 00:13:52 It is.
Speaker 3 00:13:53 And so that's why I think a lot of you see a lot of young people para shop Right. To, because they're just, I mean, they're looking for a place where that feels dynamic and alive.
Speaker 1 00:14:01 Right? Yeah. And that may or may not be tied to a building. I agree. Right. You know, so it's, it's, it's recognizing being living the church.
Speaker 2 00:14:10 What was the transition like for you? So I, most people become priests to be pastors <laugh>. And then, uh, I've often heard, you know, this move from priests to bishop. You could, it can feel like you're becoming an administrator or <laugh>, you know, the head of,
Speaker 1 00:14:25 Well, in some ways for me, um, I had been in auxiliary bishop on Long Island. I had been Vicar General, so I was kind of doing a lot of administration work. They're still with very pastoral, strong pastoral connections in a sense. It this, now I feel a little bit more like a pastor again, because now I'm, you know, there's an administration part of it, but now I'm out and visiting the parishes and working with people. So in some ways it's been, um, rejuvenating for me. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:14:56 How do you keep the lines of communication open with parishioners? I think your average Catholic in the Pew wouldn't think of reaching out to their bishop unless they had a big complaint that they needed to register. And can, can I speak to the manager ignored by everyone else <laugh>. Yeah. Um, so yeah. How do you, how do you maintain a, a a listening church?
Speaker 1 00:15:16 First of all, I was, uh, timing. I was given a great gift. I walked into Brooklyn and Queens just as they were beginning the diocesan page of the Senate. And so in my first 90 days, the first three months, um, I got to 22 Deaneries where they had already done the process in their parishes, um, for the deanery. And so then they sent delegates. And so I, I heard from each deanery, which was a great way for me to get to know the, the diocese by learning the different neighborhoods. Second thing, I don't wanna sound overly clerical here, but I have to rely on pastors as you, in some ways I needed to get to know the priests because let's be honest, to most Catholics, who am I? But a picture on the wall,
Speaker 3 00:16:15 <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:16:17 Right? Um,
Speaker 3 00:16:18 And we say your name
Speaker 1 00:16:19 In Paris and my name in the right Yeah. <laugh>. But most people know their bishop through their pastors and through their parishes. And so it's important for me to be able to get out among the parishes so that, um, but so that I'm there, of course, you're not, how, how many meaningful conversations are you going to have in a parish visit? You have some, but you're mostly just saying hello to people. So there's that sense of us actually being on the walk together. But, um, but, but I count on parishes being li a listening church, you know, so far. That's helped me a lot. You've
Speaker 3 00:16:54 Also, I've noticed, shifted to some informal ways of communication, right? Or I, I don't know if they're informal, but you've got a podcast you're doing, you're doing a lot of video stuff, um, uh, whereas traditionally maybe the, the bishop of a diocese would ever do those things. Right. How's, how has that been? Do you feel like you're able to connect with people where they are a little more?
Speaker 1 00:17:14 I hope so. Where, when I was in Columbus, it wasn't that, it wasn't a podcast, but we actu there was a radio station, a Catholic radio station. It was independent of the diocese. And essentially I peer on talk shows once in a while. But, um, but during Covid we had maybe just 15 minutes every day. And it was just a way for me to communicate to people. That's, that's all it was. I'm, I'm not, I wasn't looking really to do a hit show or big broadcast or really even to reach beyond the diocese. It was really a communication tools. And now I came here to Brooklyn and I'm not good on the sound bites, you know, so we have a TV station and we have the news program, and that's all very, very good. But, you know, on a half hour news program, you might just do a sound bite. You might take three or four minutes in a, in a, a lengthy conversation. Um,
Speaker 3 00:18:08 Just wait till see the edit job on this conversation,
Speaker 4 00:18:10 <laugh>. Oh, believe me, they, we do some edit jobs. <laugh>, I think you get more than three minutes out of
Speaker 3 00:18:15 It. <laugh>. Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 00:18:16 And so I have that in, um, in, in, in the podcast. So now it gives us a chance really to do a little more of an analytical, but it's first and foremost a communication with the people of the diocese. Um, and, and that's, that's the point of, of our podcast. Joyce has a little bit of a broader reach. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:37 Well, no, I think it's significant that, that you were willing to come on our podcast. Um, I
Speaker 1 00:18:41 Think it was nice that you
Speaker 2 00:18:42 Asked Yeah, because we, you know, we are trying to reach young Catholics throughout the country, um, and, and people like hearing from bishops, like they're often talked about in the collective and Right. They're for better or worse, and people have their opinions about the bishops. Um, but it's been really nice as something that we've been able to do at a podcast is just actually get to know them <laugh>. Um, it's,
Speaker 1 00:19:06 It, it's a great opportunity for me and I appreciate being asked. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:19:09 Well, uh, Bishop Brennan, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Uh, if you want to hear more from Bishop Brennan, whether you're in Brooklyn, Queens or not, you can always check him out on the big city Catholics podcast, which is, uh, you can find wherever you're listening to this one. Um, thank you so much, Bishop.
Speaker 1 00:19:22 I had a great time chatting with you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for listening in today, and I hope this opens a window to you, to another great podcast that's out there, Jesuitical, I invite you to tune into that regularly. In the meantime, God bless you and may the blessing of Almighty God, the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit come upon you this day, remain with you forever and ever. Amen.
