Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to a new edition of our diocesan podcast, Big City Catholics, with Bishop Robert Brennan, the diocesan bishop serving in Brooklyn and Queens, and myself, Father Christopher Henyu. Today we're joined with Kristen Curran, who's the director of government relations for the New York State Catholic Conference. We're very grateful that she's here as we discuss this month of October, Respect Life Month issues regarding life, end of life issues and course pro life concerns. Before we begin, we'll start with prayer as we do always in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Amen. This prayer is found on the respectlife.org website. It's a prayer for hope. Heavenly Father, in the sacrament of baptism, you have given us the gift of new life. Through your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, you have made us your own. Help us to recognize the gift of human life as a sign of hope in our world. Reveal to us the places where your precious gift of life is most in need of protection and strengthen us to defend life in all stages and circumstances, from the child in the womb to the elderly and dying. Guided by your Holy Spirit. Guard us from discouragement. Give us the grace to be messengers of hope, filled with confidence that nothing can separate us from your love. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen. In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Amen. Bishop Last week we had our special edition on the podcast with your recording at Damascus, which was a great opportunity for us to share the good work that's happening there. But before that even we haven't really had a chance to talk about it. But we had a really beautiful priestly convocation, all the priests of the diocese coming together in Huntington, Long island, at the retreat center of the Immaculate Conception. That was a really enjoyable.
[00:01:59] Speaker C: That's always a great boost. It is for me. So every year we get together twice for a day long conference, but every third year in the fall we have a multiple day conference and a little bit of overlap. Half one beginning of the week, half the end of the week, but on Wednesday everybody's together. It's always good when we're together as priests, isn't it? There's something that is very powerful, something that's very enjoyable.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. I was there for the first half of the week. I know you were there for the entirety of the week, but I love that. Yeah, the excitement even on, on that Wednesday when the priests that are coming in just for the day, some that are able only just for the day, those who are coming in for the back half of the week, and we're all together for an address by you. But it's just a very, very special, special time. And interestingly, Bishop, as we're beginning this talk today, and we invited Kristin Curran from the New York State Catholic Conference as well to discuss with us, pretty timely issues were discussed. And I thought it was quite providential, right, that you were mentioning these are topics that were planned speakers that were invited two years ago. And yet here we are. And so, Bishop, maybe you want to kind of shed some light on that.
[00:03:09] Speaker C: Dr. Ashley Fernandez, who I know well, he's a pediatrician from Columbus, Ohio, and it turns out now his brother is the bishop of Columbus, Columbus. But he was there first. Dr. Ashley was there first, and he's the one I knew before I knew Bishop Earl. But a lot of his work through the Catholic Medical association, and he teaches in the medical school at Ohio State. He really gives a good witness to his Catholic faith and is able to integrate that into his teaching as well as his practice. And he spoke to us really on a philosophical basis on the dignity of the human person. And then, of course, we had Dr. Hunter speaking to us about some of the issues involving gender ideology. And that's boy, that's another conference that's something we can spend a lot of time on. But given the times right now, Dr. Nicole Schirilla spoke with us about palliative care. Our topic was really palliative care. It was a broader issue.
But again, who knew we'd be fighting this fight about assisted suicide or even still fighting this fight in the fall of 2025? And so her message was very, very important for us. She spoke about, you know, on a pastoral level, how we can have conversations with people. And, you know, when you're talking to somebody who' assisted suicide, when you spend time, some of the issues start to unravel and you realize that's not what they're looking for at all, but they kind of feel pressured, that they're a burden to somebody else or something else along the line. So it's in that vein that we take the conversation today.
[00:04:38] Speaker B: Kristen, thank you for being a part of our conversation today. I know that it was about a year ago that we had you on the podcast in the beginning of this Respect Life month. And so here we are. Thanks for coming back. And can you shed some light on what we're dealing with here in New York State regarding that which is happening with the assisted suicide bill and where it stands now with Governor Hochul?
[00:05:01] Speaker A: Sure. And thanks for having me. Bishop and Father it's absolutely great to be back with you both. And like you said, Bishop, I'm so timely to be discussing this issue of assisted suicide because, Father, as you mentioned, yes, this bill, for the first time in the 11 years since this bill was first ever introduced before the New York State Legislature, it did finally move through both houses of legislature and pass both houses. And again, that was 11 years of work done by us as the church in stopping the bill and keeping it from moving and keeping it at bay, so to speak. So a really long fight that unfortunately did end with, like I said, this year, it passing both houses.
Now, it was, however, interesting and I think, a total sort of outlier in the way that bills usually pass in our legislature. As some people might know, our legislature is fully Democratic controlled and they are very much in lockstep, typically when they're passing pieces of legislation and especially controversial pieces of legislation, which this bill obviously is. So this bill was unlike other bills in that it was actually sort of a close vote, I think, 81 to 67 in the assembly, which might not seem close to just the average observer, but again, when we're used to things passing by a pretty much, you know, partisan margin in New York, as they usually do if they actually make it to the floor, this was definitely an outlier. There were hours of debate in the assembly, some debate in the Senate as well, and this was by no means a partisan vote. Like I said, this bill had opposition from both parties, and the opposition, frankly, spoke very passionately against this bill and blessedly echoed so many of our points of opposition to the legislation. So it was very fraught. It was pushed through very quickly. Again, I think, because leadership recognizes the level of discomfort that has always existed with this bill and continues to exist. We do have allies in power here in New York with us who've been who've spoken passionately against it, as I said. And that was almost a good thing that those points of opposition were able to be brought to bear on the floor of the Legislature. As we said, the bill is now passed.
[00:07:08] Speaker C: But you know what, Chris, on that, let's talk about some of that opposition, because I think it's worth noting, first of all, in the Assembly, a lot of that opposition came from Brooklyn and Queens, from Democrats in Brooklyn and Queens, and a lot of it came from people who represent districts where you have more poverty and people in need.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: Yes, I think the common theme of the opposition, and as you said, Bishop, a lot of it was from, frankly, your diocese, but a lot of the common theme with the members who spoke against it was, you know, their position as a representative that, you know, covers communities of color, disadvantaged communities, medically underserved communities and economically disadvantaged communities. And those, the members of those communities are exactly who these lawmakers fear are going to be, you know, targeted by this legislation and probably, you know, put in difficult situations by this legislation, which is very dangerous, as we know.
[00:07:58] Speaker C: Exactly. So the bill did pass, as you were saying.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: Yes, it passed both houses. And that doesn't automatically mean that there's a ticking clock on, you know, the governor's end of things. But the next step for the bill will be to go to the governor's desk. But that does not happen automatically or right away. The bill has not yet been delivered to the Governor, so there's no clock currently ticking. We're waiting for the bill to be delivered to the governor. And just as our experience tells us a bill, especially a bill like this, a controversial bill, will likely not be delivered to the governor's desk before the very end of the year. So once the bill is officially delivered to her desk, there will be a 10 day window, excluding Sundays, during which she can either sign or veto the bill. But I think the broader point there is that, you know, we still have time. And as we know, the governor has recently commented on the bill and the fact that she's, you know, this decision is weighing heavily on her, that she recognizes the gravity of this decision and recognizes what a big deal this legislation is, that that's all a good thing. So she's definitely taking her time, which means that of course, we have more time now as advocates to voice our opposition.
You know, not just the three of us, but all the faithful from the state of New York. They have the opportunity now to contact the Governor and make their voices heard.
[00:09:10] Speaker C: I think it is a very good moment. You know, we, we did a whole campaign, we really did advocate against this bill in the spring, disappointed that it went through. But, you know, I'm going to take the governor at her word and I going to say that I'm grateful. I appreciate that she's giving this consideration. At first she didn't give any indication of where she stands on it, and she still hasn't. But what she does say is that she recognizes the weightiness of it. And so she's giving it very careful consideration. Now, while you're giving that consideration, it's important, we're asking her that you take into account some of these very, very serious issues, some of the consequences of this bill.
Our concerns are rooted in a Profound. A profound concern that this will be very bad for New York State. It's. First of all, it's wrong, morally speaking, but we've seen its effects in other places. So let's talk a little bit about the fact that it's wrong. I mean, we talk about life as a gift from God, and it's meant from its natural beginning at conception until the moment that God calls us home. It's not really for us to decide when that should happen. And, you know, once we start to deciding that this life is not worth living or that life is not worth living, then you've broken the veil, and life is not necessarily sacred at every moment. So morally speaking, it's wrong, but we're also concerned because it does target the poor and the vulnerable.
[00:10:42] Speaker A: Yes. And, you know, I always say, to your point, Bishop, that, you know, death is part of life. We do owe it to, you know, our family members and our community members to walk with them during that part of life. And I think earlier you made such a good point about people feeling like a burden.
And the statistics truly show us that the feeling of being a burden is the majority reason why people choose assisted suicide. I think the issue on the other side is always framed when they're advocating for their side and for this bill. The issue is always framed through the lens of pain. And people bring posters to the Capitol with pictures of their deceased loved ones in agony and in extreme pain. And that's how they win. That's how this issue is framed. But again, the reality and the statistics show us that people are not choosing this because they're in unbearable pain. They're choosing it because they feel like a burden. So, yes, I think we, you know, we owe it to those people in our lives to not allow them to feel like a burden and to walk with them through this like this part of life, death being a part of life. So that's certainly a huge part of it. And I think that, of course, the point about the disadvantaged communities and your point about what we've seen in other places where this has been the law of the land, one thing about our fight against assisted suicide is that it has taken place sort of adjacent to Canada's journey of legalizing assisted suicide several years ago and what has happened there since then. And we know that Canada initially legalized assisted suicide with, you know, legislation very similar to the legislation here in New York with sort of that supposed tight restriction on who is who can access suicide drugs. But very quickly after, it became the law of the land in Canada, it was expanded beyond just those who are terminally ill to cover people with, quote, intolerable conditions. So not just the terminally ill, but people who sort of were tired of life, who probably felt like a burden or who just had, you know, some difficult circumstances. There's already been talk about expanding it further in Canada to those with mental health issues and things like that. And we've, we've heard horrible stories out of Canada of people from disadvantaged, you know, economically disadvantaged and medically underserved communities petitioning for services to help them to live their lives and instead being offered assisted suicide. Frankly, assisted suicide is a now a leading cause of death in Canada. Wow. So they're a real time example of the fact that the slope is slippery despite what the other side wants everybody to believe. And again, it is going to be those people in the disadvantaged communities who are targeted. You know, the governor, to your point about her weighing this, you know, decision heavily, she talks a lot about, especially lately, about the people that are at risk, you know, with, with federal cuts to Medicaid, the communities that, that have, you know, Medicaid and those services. Those are the exact people that are going to be harmed by this legislation. So we, we are grateful to the governor for considering that and we hope that she really looks at it through that lens.
[00:13:34] Speaker C: That's important because, you know, on the one hand, it does change the standard by which we judge medical care. If suicide is an option, then, you know, first of all other kinds of care, you could kind of start to slip. I remember somebody, this goes back a few years when it was first introduced on the West Coast, I think in Oregon, somebody was telling a story about his mother in the hospital and after surgery, and they knew that this would happen. There was the chance of depression, diagnosed depression, and his mom didn't want to eat, she wouldn't eat. And they told him in the hospital, well, no, no, that's all right. That's her choice. You shouldn't try to get her to eat. She wants to go down that path. That's a matter of choice. And yet she did recover, and she did recover from the depression that was really just part of the outcome of the surgery. It's scary. It just changes the whole mindset. The other thing is when you talk about the cost of medical care and everything that's associated with it, and you mentioned the governor has expressed her concern about cuts in medical care. When there's the option of assisted suicide, there's less motivation to try to do everything you can to provide the funding that is needed. And you know, one of the things I remember back in May when we were talking about this in the assembly and in the Senate, I had a conversation with the little sisters of the poor and they were talking about how they're struggling, they get more regulations and less reimbursement. We need to be putting more resources into our care for the elderly, long term care for the elderly, and then especially hospice care, palliative care. All of that we need to do. We have an obligation as a society to do that. That's already at risk, that's already experiencing the cuts. Can you imagine what will happen when we get to the point of having assisted suicide?
[00:15:31] Speaker A: Right. And you know, one, a doctor that has advocated and worked with us and who actually came to the, to the Capitol this session with us to speak against this bill, he actually had a very interesting point that he made and it was, it was to do with the Hippocratic oath, which of course to do no harm, which is, you know, the foundation of healthcare for millennia. He said that that oath was always put in place to, you know, beat back any internal or inherent biases that physicians may have because every, you know, physicians are humans and, and they all have that. And he said if you take that away, what is going to happen? And I think that really speaks to the dangers of when you're in a situation where we're talking about, you know, a limited pool of funding or limited resources with which to treat people. That's when decisions like that that, you know, start to come to bear and it's, it's very dangerous.
[00:16:20] Speaker B: This brings up an interesting point that was brought up in our brief convocation, I think by Dr. Fernandez who spoke about the new terminology that they wish to use. Instead of using the terminology assisted suicide, but medical assistance in dying maid, you know, and just the hypocrisy of medical assistance in dying. This is totally against the Hippocratic oath to help, to do no harm, to. Yet this is the way in which they're forcing that kind of ideology and this terminology on people that you wouldn't even be able to get a report published if you use the term assisted suicide. You'd have to use the term medical assistance.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: And that's really a theme father, across. You know, I watched this play out because it's a theme across all of our life issues where they really have changed the language and sort of co opted different language to desensitize people to what these issues really mean. You know, abortion is no longer abortion, it's now reproductive health care. And just as you say, you know, physician assisted suicide is now medical aid in dying. So they've really done a lot of work to change the terms to positive terms, to desensitize the population, to what these issues are really about. And, you know, and we like to keep pointing the governor just to close out the point about, you know, what this really is about and what it really is, we keep pointing the governor to the American Medical Association's like, long standing and continuing opposition to this bill, which is that they say this sort of thing is incompatible with the physician's role as healer. And so we need to remind people about that.
[00:17:55] Speaker C: Yes, indeed. You know, I want to go back to the conversation about the burden. And really that time before death when we had our convocation, Dr. Charilla spoke about two families that approached us. She was living in a state at the time, I guess, when that was an option, assisted suicide was an option.
And just sitting and talking with them, in both cases, I think it was the husband who was dying. And they kind of gave all the different reasons and talked about it.
And it was really. Each one was about an hour long conversation. It was only after an hour long conversation, the way she handled it, she just did it by asking questions and engaging them. And she didn't kind of persuade. It wasn't a persuasive thing. It was just asking questions.
And in the end, at one point when something was, when it was admitted that it was really about, he was afraid to be a burden, that the wife jumped in and said, I don't want this at all. You know, in one case it was that his care would be a burden. In the other case it would be a financial right. She would have lost a lot of resources.
And she said, I don't care. I don't want the money. I want you and I want to take care of you. They hadn't been able to have that conversation because I guess the whole idea of a medically assisted suicide kind of narrowed down the scope of the conversation. And he thought he was doing the responsible thing and she was trying to respect his wishes.
[00:19:15] Speaker A: And.
[00:19:16] Speaker C: But in the context of a conversation, the couple discovered that this wasn't something that either one wanted to do, but they thought they were doing for the other. And so Dr. Cole said, well, who's going to have those conversations? When do you go to a doctor and spend an hour in the room? I looked around that room and I said, I guess we're going to be having those conversations. If we have the entry point, we're the ones who are going to have it. That's another issue is for us as a church, if this were to pass, we're going to have to, to look at how we deal with this pastorally. There's so, so many pastoral issues that are associated with it. This will be a radical shift in culture. The other thing about the burden issue is that, and I don't say this lightly, while the time before death, it's a harrowing experience, it's painful for everybody involved, and we all know we can speak to experiences ourselves, but it's also a very graceful time.
There's something very powerful that emerges when you see a husband taking care of his wife or child taking care, adult child taking care of the parent in some ways, like a reversal of roles. And St. John Paul II used to say, suffering releases love.
And while there are times, I'm not going to say it's universally the case, there are times that it's tough, you know, there's time of tension. But I. My experience is more often than not, it can draw people together. It's a time for reconciliation. Sometimes it's a time for giving thanks to somebody.
It's a time very simply to be together and say, I love you. So far from being burdens to one another. Yeah, you know, love is burdensome. But you know what? I'd rather live in a world where there are the burdens of love than live in a world where everything is medically sanited. Love is a grace, a gift from God.
[00:21:07] Speaker A: Yes, I agree. I was blessed to have two such experiences with family members. My grandfather being in hospice and an uncle who I lost eight years ago to als. But we still in art, my family talk about the experience of all being together in the hospice wing with my grandfather that I mentioned offline, a wedding from last year. And part of my whole speech I gave at the wedding was about the bride and my husband, who became literally like their relationship, their close bond was forged in the hospice wing as my grandfather, you know, lay dying. So those moments can then do happen. Bishop. And I think you're, you're so right that instead of discouraging those things from happening, we need to talk about how we facilitate those good experiences.
[00:21:50] Speaker C: That's it. And that becomes, if we're going to advocate, this is really walking the walk, just like we do with advocacy about abortion. If we're going to speak about pro life issues, we're going to speak about abortion. We have to be ready to help moms in need. We have to be ready to do the work and the same here. There's a message for all of us. So certainly we want to advocate for legislation that gives the resources to hospice and palliative care and all that. But you know, it is true that there are people who die alone. It is true that there are people who suffer a great deal. What can we as Catholic faithful or really, what can anyone, any one of goodwill, do? What should we be more aware of, that we can be responsive or change a culture that allows people to. To die with dignity? We all think of Mother Teresa dealing with the poorest of the poor. Sometimes people used to question her, what, what are you doing? These people are going to die. You're not making them better. But she said, at least they will die knowing they were loved.
So there is a great challenge to us as well. If we're going to advocate it, we do have to be attentive. What do we do at this time? It's in the Governor's hands. And again, I'm going to say this sincerely. I want to say thank you to the Governor for taking it seriously. And I know, I want us to respond, but I want us to respond with respect and that kind of appreciation.
But we really do need to speak up because she says she's listening. So that's a good thing.
[00:23:19] Speaker A: Yes. We're also so grateful to her for recognizing the gravity of the situation. And as to the faithful and as Catholics, what we can do is at least like everyone can, you know, call the governor, write to the governor, email and voice your opposition, say why this bill is bad and say that you'd like her to veto this bill. I've heard, I know some parishes are doing some sort of a group effort together with letter writing campaigns and things like that. We have easy ways to contact the Governor's office on this bill through our website. So there are different things to do, but definitely, you know, talk to people about it as well. Not everybody, of course, not everybody even knows that this is, as you know, a bill or an issue at all. Some people don't understand it, some people don't understand the far reaching implications beyond just the simple explanation that's sometimes given by the other side. So educate people, talk to people about it, and encourage each other to make your voice heard at the Governor's office.
[00:24:13] Speaker C: Very good. The Tablet this past week had the story of the Governor's comments. And on the front cover there's a QR code. So all you have to do is put your phone up against that and it'll link you right to the new York State Catholic Conference and give you all the tools you need to be able to contact the governor. And the website for the New York.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: State Catholic conference is nyscatholic.org and it'll pop up right there first thing.
[00:24:40] Speaker C: So, Kristen, thank you very much for being with us this week. And that's an important point. Talk about it with other people because, yes, it's sort of stays under the radar. I don't know that people realize how close we are or that some people who were fighting against it realize that it's not a done deal.
So it is good that we talk to one another about it. Absolutely. And we can never stop praying. You know, last Sunday in the gospel, we heard Habakkuk crying out, how long, O Lord, how long?
And the answer is, well, you know, we pray. He says, he says, be patient and stay persevere, persevere in those prayers and draw our strength from them.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: That. Well, thank you so much for having me. Bishop. Father CHRIS it's great to be with you guys.
[00:25:22] Speaker B: Bishop, in light of that topic of bringing this to prayer, perhaps you could end with a prayer and a blessing.
[00:25:27] Speaker C: Lord God, we come before you these days as pilgrims of hope. We keep our eyes fixed on you and yes, we know there are challenges along the way. And we ask you to help us to be instruments of your love, of your mercy, of your love for all life. We ask you to bless us on this week, keep us strong, to help us persevere. And we ask you God's blessing upon all of you who are listening. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May his face shine upon you and be gracious to you. May he look upon you with kindness and grant you his peace. And may the blessing of Almighty God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit descend upon us and remain with us forever and ever.
Amen.
[00:26:05] Speaker B: Thank you, Bishop. Thank you again, Kristen. And thanks to all who continue to join us each and every week. We hope that you'll share this important message and get and continue to pray for the dignity of respect for life in all stages. Meet you again next week. God bless.
