Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome to this week's edition of Big City Catholics. I'm your host, Bishop Robert Brennan, Bishop of Brooklyn, serving in Brooklyn and Queens. Recently, I had the chance to go back and visit so much of what I loved in central Ohio in the Diocese of Columbus. I went to be part of the speaker series at Damascus, a lay missionary movement of young adults who are making a tremendous difference in the central Ohio area. Had the chance to sit down with Brad Pieran, and we have what we call a crossover episode so that they're sharing their Beyond Damascus podcast with us at Big City Catholics. Thanks for listening in.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Bishop Brennan, welcome back to Ohio.
[00:00:52] Speaker A: Oh, it's good to be back in Ohio. I loved Ohio.
[00:00:55] Speaker B: Yeah. What's it been like being back four years away?
[00:00:59] Speaker A: Yeah, four years away. It still feels like home. It's great. I'll tell you, I've been back not often, but for a couple of things over the years, and never outside of Columbus.
[00:01:11] Speaker C: Oh, okay.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: So it was kind of nice getting to Columbus.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: But also to so much of what the Diocese of Columbus is really all about, all of the different communities and getting up here to Damascus. That was so incredible.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. And you've been here for a couple days. You spoke last night, and thank you for your words last night. They were, I think, a blessing to everybody that was here. What's it like seeing people that.
That you've had relationship with before doing what they're doing now? Like, can you just explain a little bit about last night? Like, what was it like for you to come back and see the chapel where you gave permission that Jesus could be fully present there in the Eucharist? And, like, I saw you go in immediately and seeing the missionaries who you spent time with, obviously, a number of.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: Years ago, the experience at Damascus was one of the great blessings of my life. I really am grateful to the Lord for that time and for those relationships yesterday, being around some of the people, it was. There were different groups of people, so there were people who were old friends, people who. I remember people who were great supporters when I was here. They were great supporters and Friends of Damascus, and they're still at it, and.
And to see their commitment is really invigorating.
[00:02:25] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: On the other hand, there was a new generation of missionaries coming forth. You know, being out four years is a long time in the life of a young adult. Yeah, it really is.
And. And so there's a whole new flock and some of them there, too. Kids from all over the country. Kids, I confirmed.
[00:02:42] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:02:43] Speaker A: I met a couple of the kids that I can.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: That's really cool.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Teens. And to make that connection was good. And, you know, there were others who were here when I was here, but I got to meet in a new way.
[00:02:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:02:59] Speaker A: Through their connection right now with Damascus. So it's like any family homecoming, you. You get back home, and yeah, there are things that you just fall right into step. But then there were some things that are new. It's nice to see some of the things that were sort of underway four years ago and to see now how they've taken off and how they are indeed bearing fruit. That's true here in Damascus. It's true here in the Diocese of Columbus. It's true in so many ministries that. That we see. It's true in the vocations that are here. It's true in campus ministry, and it's. It's true in parish life.
So, yeah, been a great, great reconnecting.
[00:03:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: Praise God for that. Thanks for.
Thanks for sharing. I. I was. I was thinking last night, you spoke a number of times last night how Ohio was a place that taught you a lot. And can you speak to that a little bit today? What was it about your experience in Ohio that invigorated you and set you up to make the transition to be bishop of Brooklyn?
[00:04:03] Speaker A: Now, I saw serving here in Columbus as an end in itself and what I mean. And then as a purpose. Yeah, that's.
[00:04:10] Speaker C: That was my goal.
[00:04:11] Speaker A: That's where I wanted, not just a stepping stone.
And so I really did pour myself into it and figured, hey, I'm home. This is where I'm going to be.
[00:04:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: So at the time, I didn't see it as a learning experience, only in hindsight.
[00:04:24] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: But looking back.
Yeah. I think my experience in Brooklyn would be very different if I didn't have this experience here in Ohio.
First of all, it's not a bad thing to get outside of New York, just to see a different perspective, to see the world from another viewpoint. So that Midwest viewpoint, one of the things we had the chance to talk about there was in central Ohio a diversity. I experience an awful lot of cultural diversity, an awful lot of language diversity in Brooklyn and Queens, and it's so rich and it's so exciting. But here I experience this diversity of life, you know, whether it be the rural settings, the farm countries and the parishes and communities around those, or the Appalachian experience down in Southern and more eastern Ohio, and, of course, the city life of Columbus. People used to say, when I was living in Columbus, they'd say, oh, you must miss the big city. And I said, no, this is the first time I'm living in the city.
You know, I didn't live in the city in New York.
[00:05:34] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:05:35] Speaker A: And then the suburbs, which is where I was used to. So that gives you different point of view, and it affects parish life and community life.
But then to see what's possible. That's what really I learned here, to see what's possible, to see different ways of approaching our faith. It's the same faith, and it's even the same expression of the faith. But to experience it so alive in so many lay movements and so many missionary movements, movements in so many young people. I grew up in an area where you just kind of assumed everybody in your block was Capricorn, even though they weren't sure, but a good majority of them are. And in some sense, I think I grew up taking that for granted. Whereas Here we're about 10% of the population, a very small minority, and yet it's a minority that matters. People look to the church, and I think what that does is for the Catholics who are living here in central Ohio, there's a sense of that identity of who we are and a sense of ownership of that, maybe even pride. And that turns into a missionary spirit. This desire to share this good news, this experience of being Catholic.
[00:06:57] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. What's possible?
[00:06:59] Speaker A: What's possible?
[00:06:59] Speaker B: What's possible? That's been my experience a lot, too. I think the community in Columbus, and it's probably true elsewhere, most of my experiences here, there is just a missionary impulse that I experience in the ones who are faithful Catholics. This desire to share the good news, to not just live the good news for your life, but bring it to other people. I've been a part of the lay movements in the area. I wonder, what was that like for you to see so many lay movements with that missionary impulse? Was it. You said it was new, but was it in invigorating to you? Was it challenging to you? Like, what was your response like?
[00:07:33] Speaker A: Yeah, it was both. Sure, it's invigorating, but because, you know, there were so many of these things. It's, it's. It's also, you know, like St. Paul, test everything.
What's good.
[00:07:46] Speaker B: Yeah, good.
[00:07:46] Speaker A: Discern those spirits. So, you know, I approached it with. With the sense of, okay, what is this all about? But I found that by embracing these movements and, and entering into relationship, I learned a lot from people like yourself, people like you, people like those here at Damascus, people like young Catholic professionals that were the Young adults gave me my first tour of Columbus from the young adult perspective.
I think I learned to give it a chance.
[00:08:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:08:20] Speaker A: And see how. How the spirit's working, see what's happening, and don't be afraid to try some new things, some new ways. Inevitably, I learned from the people around me.
It was just so, again, I'll say it. Invigorating.
[00:08:38] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:39] Speaker B: I wonder, is there anything particular about the missionary impulse here that you've taken with you back to Brooklyn? Like, what was it? Was it just the desire to get out of the pews and to go into the world? Was it desire to bring people to the fullness of faith? Because I know there's a lot of things you're doing in Brooklyn with the young people especially, and I'm wondering how much of that time in Columbus impacted your heart to say, okay, now that I see what's possible, and I see that missionary impulse is alive and well in the church, wonder what that could look like in a New York context.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Well, you know what?
This is really just becoming clearer to me as we're about talking. Talking.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: I think one of the things I learned here is I learned how to learn.
So when I went into Brooklyn and Queens, there were certain things that I experienced here that.
[00:09:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:09:30] Speaker A: I wanted to share and experience and talk about. But on the other hand, I went into Brooklyn and Queens with a little bit of a discerning year.
[00:09:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:09:41] Speaker A: Because.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: Because that's what you did when you came.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: Because that's what I learned that I needed to do when I was here.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: That's great.
[00:09:47] Speaker A: And so, you know, now with so many cultures, for example, I'm learning, again, another way of expressing that love of the Lord.
You know, we have some churches where. You know, we have some churches where the phenomenon that we face across the United States is taking place. Fewer people, older people.
[00:10:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:10:11] Speaker A: People kind of disconnected. But we also have some parishes where they're overflowing with families and young families.
[00:10:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:10:19] Speaker B: Praise God.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: And a lot of that would be in the different ethnic communities. I see it in Hispanic parishes. I see it in the Korean parishes. I see it in so many different groups. But I approach it now because I say, wow, what can I learn in this place? It's not just a matter of taking what you experienced and putting it into another box over here, but it's that openness to learning and then. But at the same time, being free to just express that joy, that excitement.
[00:10:58] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: I.
I've always admired. If I can honor you for a moment, I've always admired your humility.
There's. There's just.
It's really refreshing talking to you because I think that the Lord has obviously done so much in your life, and you sitting in the position that you did here in Columbus and sitting in the position you do now in Brooklyn, that disposition of learning has been something I've experienced. And it's interesting because when we think about the first apostles, the first bishops, they're also the first disciples.
[00:11:27] Speaker C: Right.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: An apostle is one who sent. And you were sent here and have been sent back, and they were also disciples, which is. I mean, it means learner.
[00:11:36] Speaker C: Right.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: So they're. They're ones who are sent, but also ones who are learning and learning from the Lord. And we learn from the Lord in our personal prayer, which I. I'm sure we can maybe get into in the interview. But we also learn from the Lord through those that the Lord puts around us. And that's been so evidenced by, I think, the way that you've led. I wonder if we can adjust a little bit. I'd love to hear, because the position that you're in is obviously one that I haven't been in and I won't be in as a bishop. But I.
I'm interested in what you see as the challenges in the church today, because I think I have a perspective coming from Damascus, where we're doing a lot of work with middle schoolers and high schoolers and college students, and I'm seeing the world through a very particular lens there. But when you look at the challenges that face the church today, what would you say about them? What do you see as the challenges, and why do you think those challenges exist?
[00:12:32] Speaker A: To a certain extent, I think the challenges exist. They've always been there because we're human people doing the best that we can with what we have.
And when we take our eyes off the Lord and start to focus in on our own ideas and preferences, that's when division can start to seep in.
[00:12:55] Speaker C: And.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: And. And a lot of the challenges of the world are our challenges. So one challenge that's good is that in the world, it's not just a matter crisis of faith, but it's a whole crisis of meaning. You know, in the wake of that terrible violence in Minneapolis with the school shooting, a lot of people are starting to talk about this phenomenon of nihilism, of nothingness, of.
Of a total absence of hope.
[00:13:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: And we see that to varying degrees in our whole society.
And there are times that it becomes actually very, very dangerous.
But living in that Milieu.
[00:13:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: It can affect us. It can jade us all, even as people of hope.
[00:13:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right.
[00:13:52] Speaker A: We can really let ourselves be affected by that darkness. Yeah, that darkness. So that's kind of a stock example.
[00:14:00] Speaker C: It is.
[00:14:01] Speaker A: You know, and it's a reality. The reality of evil. There's a spiritual battle out there.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: There is when we have to know how the environment around us affects us.
[00:14:08] Speaker A: Right.
[00:14:09] Speaker B: And I think that the church has always been designed to be the one that goes out into the world. Like we're one holy, catholic and apostolic. Right. We're supposed to go to the world in a unified way and. And present the good news of the gospel.
[00:14:21] Speaker C: That.
[00:14:22] Speaker B: One of my favorite lines that I don't even remember who first shared it with me, but it's the bad news of modern secularism is that everything is permitted, but nothing is forgivable. Exactly. And no one is redeemable. And then the good news of the ancient gospel of Jesus Christ is not everything is permitted, but everything is forgivable and everyone redeemable. Like, I think that that contrast, now, that's the proper context for that contrast. But I think to your point, sometimes we can get so jaded by the darkness that we see that we start trying to say, how can I take the preferences I have, build principles around them so I can be safe from the.
The world outside where. I think the church. And I would love to hear your thoughts on that. Is actually supposed to be like, actually, we. We have Jesus Christ, the light of the world, and when light comes, darkness has to flee, not the other way around. So how can we actually go out and make Jesus known?
[00:15:17] Speaker C: Right. Is that a.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: That's a. That's a very fair question. Yeah, I think we can come back. It's worth talking about some of those divisions that are out there.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: Yeah, sure.
[00:15:26] Speaker A: But let's. Let's talk about the. How. Yeah, the light.
[00:15:28] Speaker C: Yeah, please.
[00:15:30] Speaker A: I think it has to start with experiencing that light ourselves. It has to start with that relationship with the Lord, knowing him.
Kind of taking from the topic of last night, knowing Jesus as Jesus really is, not just as I want him to be, loving Jesus as Jesus really is, and. And not just as I want him to be too, too often. Again, this goes back to the earliest days of the church, to the first Pope.
[00:16:02] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:16:03] Speaker B: Back to Peter.
[00:16:03] Speaker A: Back to Peter. You know, so this has always been there, but we often have this imagination which is. I guess we have to work out of an imagination. And of course, you know, our physical relationship with Jesus is sort of Distant. You know, we have. We experience him in the community, in the chur, in. In the sacraments, through His Word. But we're not looking at human face to face, you know, so what do we do? We let our imaginations fill in the blanks. And that's good and bad. We do the best that we can with what we have.
[00:16:39] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: But that can easily devolve into this sense of Jesus. I'm going to be crass as an imaginary friend.
[00:16:46] Speaker B: Yeah, sure.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: Who says what I want him to say, who doesn't challenge me.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: He becomes my echo chamber. He just affirms all the things I already think. Yeah.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: So I think the first way to bring the light into the world is to be present to the light.
[00:17:00] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: Let the light shine upon me into the darkness of my heart. You know, there's this really powerful prayer of St. Francis. We all know the prayer of St. Francis. Make me peace. But there's this prayer of St. Francis before the crucifix. Lord, shine your light into the darkness of my heart.
[00:17:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:22] Speaker A: To help me to discern.
[00:17:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:24] Speaker A: I say this now. Recently, a confirmation speak to the hotel. He wants to hear from you. Tell him what's on your mind. But you know how there are lots of people who talk and talk and talk.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: No, I love it.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: Don't listen. Don't be that person.
[00:17:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:35] Speaker A: Listen to him. Just give him. And even if it seems like silence, give him time.
Don't give up. Don't give up. Give him time. Let him speak to you, but then also let him speak to you through the tools that he gave us.
Get to know him in his gospels. Read that gospel. Know it. Know it inside and out. Let Jesus speak to you through his own word and of course, through the sacraments.
[00:18:00] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:01] Speaker A: And that's what connects us to the Church because it's not my Jesus and your Jesus, it's Jesus who reveals himself in time and through the church.
[00:18:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: You know, So I think that's key. Going back to your question about how. How do you deal with that?
[00:18:18] Speaker B: Bring that light to the world, into.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: The darkness of the world by first trying to let that light into your own heart.
[00:18:24] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:24] Speaker B: What's standing out to me and what you're saying is I think towards the end there, what I was kind of summarizing your thoughts with is like, the reason we should read the Gospels, the reason we should frequent the sacraments, is because the more we get to know Jesus as he is, the more that we can live life as he lived life that we can be him for the world, that the more that I spend time with him, I know him as he is. And what I've noticed is, again, you were talking about getting back to the divisions in the church. I don't even know if it's as much about the divisions as topic A versus topic B. But for me, it's more. How can I, as Brad, learn more and more how to make myself in Jesus's image instead of Jesus in my image?
You know, like the imaginary friend concept you were saying, where Jesus is just the one who has the same preferences I have. And what I've always laughed at when I do that is, isn't that convenient when I make Jesus. All of Jesus's ways of thinking are my ways of thinking. And that's really helpful for me because then I don't have to change it all, you know, then it's whoever I'm talking to, they have to change.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: It's amazing how often the Holy Spirit agrees with us, isn't it?
[00:19:26] Speaker B: It's amazing.
[00:19:27] Speaker C: All right. Yeah.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: Yeah. My conscience is so well formed that it just tells me I'm always doing the right thing.
[00:19:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: You know, I do think there's a.
[00:19:35] Speaker A: And then you get into the world.
[00:19:36] Speaker B: So.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: So let's talk about those divisions. And, you know, this is good. I can. I don't have to use names and parties and all that. We'll just do red and blue. That's one of the challenges I faced here in Ohio, which I loved being here. I happened to be, in my short time, I happened to be in a swing state during a presidential election. I had a lot of people telling me what I need to be doing, what the Church needs to be doing. And of course, what the Church needs to be doing is embracing your candidate and condemning the other.
[00:20:02] Speaker B: Yeah, of course.
How could it be otherwise?
[00:20:05] Speaker A: But. Exactly. But, but you see, here's the thing that. What the Vatican Council taught us in Gaudium and Spez, it's the role of the Church to look at the signs of the time and interpret them according to the light of faith. It's not the other way around. It's not that the light of faith is defined by the signs of the time. And what we're.
We're encouraged to do, as you say, is to bring that light into the world. We need.
This is so important for me. We need red Catholics and blue Catholics. We need cats and. Yeah, we need cats of all the other colors, too, because there are lots of different parties out there. I know, but we.
We need thoughtful Prayerful Catholics engaged in those dialogues.
[00:20:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:55] Speaker A: Bringing the light of faith into that political world.
And, you know, one of the things that I've been talking about lately, too, is even the role of prayer, you know, in the light of some of these tragedies and even in some of these negotiations in peace, you know, we need peaceful dialogue and negotiation among nations.
We need to have conversations about violence, about. About gun violence, about enforcement of the laws. We need to have conversations about law and order. We need to have conversations about mental illness. We need to have conversations about all of these things. It's incredibly important. But we need people of prayer.
[00:21:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:37] Speaker A: At the table, engaged in those conversations.
[00:21:41] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:21:42] Speaker A: There was this move to kind of. You heard, the sort of dismissal of prayer, you know, and I know where people are coming from. Sometimes people use the term.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: They throw it out there.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: They just throw it out. They don't mean it. So I know that some of the people who were dismissing prayer weren't really dismissing prayer. They were dismissing empty sentiments. But I get you. And they. But they were very. But there was a sense of a very American practicality. No, we don't need to pray. We need to get out and do.
[00:22:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: Legislate. Do all these things. And it's like. No, prayer's action oriented.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Prayer's action propels you into action.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: And.
And quite honestly, if you're not praying, the action you're doing isn't rooted in anything.
[00:22:21] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: You know.
[00:22:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: So.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: And when you're praying, if we can go back to your point to tie those together, let's make sure in prayer, it's a dialogue that I'm not going in and monologuing with the Lord.
[00:22:31] Speaker C: Right.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: Like I'm going in and saying, lord, this is the way that I'm feeling about this thing.
How do you see it?
[00:22:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:37] Speaker C: Right.
[00:22:37] Speaker B: And recognizing that the God of the universe wants to be with us, like the incarnation of Jesus, if it proves nothing else, which it proves a lot of other things, it at least proves to us that God doesn't want to be distant.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: No.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: It at least proves to us that God wants to be involved in our.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: He wants to be engaged completely.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: Of course. Of course. And I wonder what you think about this. So one of the lines that I've really liked recently when I've been wrestling this, and maybe it's just an American experience, because I don't have one outside of that, but this feeling that I can have sometimes that the. The winds of the culture. So you mentioned the darkness of the culture, but I Also think the division of the culture can sometimes seep into the Church. Like you're saying, instead of the unity of the church getting out into the world.
[00:23:18] Speaker C: Right.
[00:23:18] Speaker B: When we talk about the four marks of the Church, the first one we say is that we're one.
[00:23:22] Speaker C: Right.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: And are you this sort of Catholic or this sort of Catholic? It's like, well, I'm baptized.
[00:23:27] Speaker C: Right.
[00:23:27] Speaker B: Like, the answer to that is like, no, I'm Catholic. Which is the beauty of that, is that you and I can be different and be together and break bread literally.
[00:23:36] Speaker A: There are many things that I can say in gratitude for our Holy Father. For Pope Leo.
[00:23:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:23:42] Speaker A: There are many, many things. But I. I love his motto in the one, we are all one. Yeah.
We're not one because we have similar political ideas or aspirations. We're not one because we look the same.
[00:24:00] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: We're not one because we have the. The same taste for food.
We're one in Him.
[00:24:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:24:09] Speaker A: But one in Jesus Christ.
[00:24:11] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: And that's what ties us together.
[00:24:14] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:15] Speaker B: Communion.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: Communion.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: Common union with Jesus.
[00:24:19] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: Because I think sometimes we can.
We can demand conformity where the Church allows for diversity of expression almost. So we can conceptualize communion.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:24:31] Speaker B: But communion is when I come together with my brothers and sisters, who we might have varying perspectives on a variety of things. And isn't that the beauty of the church, is that she speaks definitively when she needs to?
[00:24:41] Speaker C: Right.
[00:24:42] Speaker B: Like, no, the. The Assumption of Mary, that's. That's what we believe. And then there's other times where it's this. This pastoral application that I think Pope Leo is picking up from what Pope Francis was doing of how do we make sense of this?
This is a tricky thing.
[00:24:59] Speaker A: And how does that experience of prayer and of faith prop us into, you know, propel us?
[00:25:05] Speaker B: I think so. I think so, yeah. Because again, to your point, when we see Jesus as he is, not as we want him to be, we can see what he really wants for our lives and how he really wants us to look. And one of the things that I've loved about being a part of Damascus, and it's been so humbling for me because it's the experience I've had. But we form all of our missionaries into not making one spirituality normative.
Right.
[00:25:32] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: Because there's something amazing about the fact that the church, the expression of the church, there's this institutional, objective, amazing aspect to it. And then there's this individual charism, individual spirituality way that Jesus reveals himself. We see this in the apostles, we See this all the way through the Church Fathers we see this to today. Right. And I wonder if I can return to kind of the.
The prompt that started this. I was asking about the challenges in the Church today. What do you think it is in your experience that makes it hard for us to let. Let go of that control or that.
Is it just the human experience? I wonder what your experience has been. Do, you know, because we. We kind of like when anxiety comes, we're like, I'll just hold on to this and then bring everyone to me instead of giving it over to God.
[00:26:24] Speaker A: That's a very good question. I'm not sure I have the exact answer.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: Yeah, sure.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: But just kind of grapple with it a little bit.
I think it is part of that human experience of finitude. You know, we're really created for the infinite. We're created for God, but what we're accustomed to is finitude.
[00:26:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: What's the C.S.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: Lewis quote? When I find, find in myself desires that this world can't satisfy, it only makes sense that I was made exactly for something outside the world, that.
[00:26:50] Speaker A: That finitude to definitive or to quote St Pierre Giorgio Frasati.
[00:26:55] Speaker B: Yes. As of today, as we record this.
[00:26:57] Speaker A: This morning, you know, one of his expressions was upward, look upward. You know, he was a mountain climber and he meant look upward, but he also meant look upward toward God. You know, lift your eyes, you know, at the canonization, Father said, sometimes it's just a matter of even just turning your vision, lifting your eyelids up a little bit. Really do that to look upwards.
We're so narrow, focused in what's around us, and then guarded and protected.
[00:27:25] Speaker B: That's great.
[00:27:26] Speaker A: That.
And that's. I remember I had a moral teacher who said something. We sort of have this gravitational pull, the unholy trinity, me, myself and I. So we have this gravitational pull to bring things in, to close things off, to be protective.
[00:27:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:27:40] Speaker A: He said, but deeper inside. This is the teaching of Augustine that even. Yeah, deeper there's another pull, and that's the pull that's been placed by God. The, you know, the restless heart.
[00:27:50] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: The hole in the heart that can only be filled by the infant.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: Our hearts are restless until they rest in me.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: You got it. And so St Pierre Giorgio Frasadi said, look upward, get out of yourself.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: I love that. I love the.
Yes. I love looking at Pierre next to Augustine, because Augustine famously refers to sin as the collapsing in on oneself. Right, right. This. And I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I know that as I Collapse in on myself. That's when I'm grasping for control.
That's when comparison enters in and I'm like, well, let me show you how I have all these things right and how they're all wrong on this, because don't you see that, like, my values in my intellect and my values. And it's like my values in that God loves me and I haven't done anything to earn that, and I never, never will. Praise. Praise God.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: And, you know, even when we just physically. When we're lost or when we're, you know, trying to find our way around, we just look in. But sometimes you just need to kind of step up on the heights and then you get the broader horizon.
[00:28:55] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:28:56] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: And that's where I think the Lord leads us. He. He has.
Pulls us toward himself.
[00:29:01] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:29:03] Speaker B: I love that. Yeah. Some of the challenges in the church, we see that the church can both blend in with the darkness of the world, which is. Isn't great. It can. It can begin trying to isolate itself from the darkness of the world, which doesn't make it the church that it's supposed to be. Some of the other challenges or the divisions that come in and other things. I wonder.
Oh, no, you started with nihilism. To that nothing. That nothingness that I think that despair.
[00:29:28] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: That the generation now can wrestle with.
[00:29:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:31] Speaker B: I wonder, like, what. You're already speaking to it a little bit with, looking up, what are some of the solutions to those things, do you think? So, like, if we look at those problems, then the nothingness, the. The lack of meaning, the lack of purpose, which I think is combated by the missional spirit that you're talking about, like, that's our purpose. Purpose. Our purpose is to.
To be as Jesus, like, as we can for the sake of the world. But I wonder.
[00:29:56] Speaker A: Well, you know, those other rest.
I know I'm sitting in your studio here in Damascus, and I've had a powerful experience being back here this weekend, but this is where I have to congratulate you, because it's the encounter with Jesus Christ and the confidence of that encounter.
I think we need to share that joy and excitement with one another. We need to be able to encourage our brothers and sisters to lift them up to see their good and, yeah, we're going to see their faults, but, like, to try to draw that out of them the way that the Lord does it with us, you know, to. To encourage that good. I grew up in an age where kids could be downright mean to each other.
[00:30:42] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: That hasn't changed.
I remember these things and I never really encountered this, but there was something called like a slam book. People would write nasty things about each. Like they pick on one person and they pass it around. It was an evil form of gossip. It wasn't just gossip. It was like hurtful gossip, but that's still here.
The difference was it was a notebook.
[00:31:10] Speaker B: And now the reach is. Now it's so broad.
Yeah, we have to watch that. It's so, well, gossip in general. I think even the platforms that we'll release this on, you know, like YouTube and podcasts, like the comment section can be so uncharitable and not just. Just in general to one another.
[00:31:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:31] Speaker B: I found in my, my own life, I'm like, wow, I really need to make sure my heart is in alignment with the Lord before I comment on whatever. Similar to what you're saying.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: One of the things.
Again, going back to the ethnic ministries in Brooklyn and Queens, we also have so many powerful lay movements that again, are brand new to me because many of them are rooted in other cultures.
[00:31:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:31:54] Speaker A: But some of them I knew a little bit when I was in Rockville Center. Especially in the Spanish speaking world.
[00:32:01] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: But there's so many others. And these movements have a great ability to draw people in, to encourage people and then to send them out.
[00:32:12] Speaker B: If you ever want to know with certainty that God is moving, if you want that hope to be alive in your life, listen to a middle schooler talk about encountering Jesus.
And it's just the purest, simplest thing. You know, like Jesus said he loved me in prayer.
[00:32:29] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: Or in the. In Eucharist. In a time of Eucharistic adoration, I felt like the Lord showed me his heart.
Or I saw his face.
[00:32:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:39] Speaker B: Or I felt like he put his hand on my shoulder.
[00:32:41] Speaker A: Right.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: It like just the simplest, like most profound things. I think our young people can teach us so much. And I've been so encouraged that encounter.
Well, let me try, try this with you and see what you think about it. But I think that all of us are just complicated middle schoolers.
Like, I think. I think middle schoolers aren't.
Aren't to the place where they can have a narrative that complicates everything. So it's always very simple. And I think the simplicity of encounter is supposed to be exactly the same for a middle schooler.
[00:33:13] Speaker A: You know, it's funny you say that, because I know a lot of your roots are in spo. St. Paul Outreach.
And this comes from St. Paul Outreach.
I remember Somebody saying, what you learn about middle school kids is that they want to be seen, known, and loved. And then he looks up and he says, but don't we all?
[00:33:33] Speaker B: Don't we all? Yeah, that's right. I'm coming back to the solution question that I was asking you. I think encounter is one of those solutions. What do you think about the Church today? So, obviously, John Paul ii, a hero of mine. I know you and I have talked about John Paul the Great a number of times on his way of approaching it. I think it being just the faith in the modern world was phenomenal. And you quoted Gaudium et spes earlier. One of my favorite lines of all time is Gaudium at spes 24. That man only finds himself through a sincere gift of himself. Like, I think John Paul II has so much to add to the dialogue today. Because what I was going to say is, when I look at his.
Well, I would say just a prophetic declaration he had, which was that the first millennium was a millennium of unity.
The second millennium was a millennium of disunity. You look at the schism, you look at the Protestant Reformation, you look at the sexual revolution.
And then he declared that this third millennium would be a millennium of reunity, which I think is.
[00:34:36] Speaker A: We got to get cracking.
[00:34:37] Speaker C: We got to get on that. Yeah, yeah.
[00:34:39] Speaker B: So again, solution, encounter. I'm in agreement with all that. I wonder if we could talk a little bit about how that solution is played out amongst bishops, priests, and lay leaders. Because I think another thing that John Paul II was focusing on was new movements. Obviously, he had the famous gathering of new movements and saw that the Holy Spirit was doing something in the lay people that go out.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: Let's talk about listening.
[00:35:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that learning how to listen is.
[00:35:06] Speaker A: What we're talking about. Because I think that's the. That is the key in terms of our relationship with the Lord.
[00:35:11] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:11] Speaker A: But there's also listening to each other.
One of the things that we need to learn is, and really do learn it as a skill is deep listening, listening very attentively, and that requires a great discipline. Whereas just listening to one another simply for the sake of listening to one another and maybe for the sake of learning from one another.
[00:35:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:40] Speaker A: Somebody can be 90% wrong.
[00:35:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:45] Speaker A: But what's the 10% that I can learn from the experience of listening? Yeah, well, you know, so. So we. We need to listen and. And listen attentively, putting ourselves into it. So now let's broaden this on an institutional basis, please. You know, Pope Francis was big on synodality.
[00:36:07] Speaker B: He was.
[00:36:08] Speaker A: And I know that.
And. And you know, the interesting thing? I mean, I could go all over the place with synodality.
[00:36:15] Speaker B: Yeah, sure.
[00:36:16] Speaker A: One of the things is, I do believe that the United States is a citadel church. We already have a lot of these structures and a lot of people coming around the table. So I think there's a goodness.
But the challenge for us is within that is to make structures, to be sure that we're listening to one another and hearing one another.
We might not be able to change the reality, but at least I have to understand where you're coming from. I might have to understand your pain and your sorrow.
You know, this is an important thing for me as a bishop, and I'm going through this right now. We did it here in Columbus with the real presence, real future. But sometimes you have to make hard choices.
You have to enter into some. A dialogue with an open heart. But even when you know that there's only one reality at the end of this, the pain that some people might feel is genuine.
[00:37:18] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:37:20] Speaker A: That. You know, Bishop Fernandez had to take the tough job. I kind of got the ball rolling, but he had to make some decisions about either closing places, doing a little bit of pruning and so that there would be growth. And it's so exciting to come back here and hear him talk about some of the things that have to be done now where you have to do some building.
[00:37:38] Speaker B: Yes, that's right.
[00:37:39] Speaker A: They're going to have to be building schools and things like that, you know, so it is a little bit of pruning for growth, but he had to make some tough choices. I'm in that boat right now. And you have to say, I know this is what has to happen, but that doesn't change the reality that somebody who grew up here.
[00:37:56] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:57] Speaker A: Felt and feels right now. And, you know, the attachments, they're not bad attachments.
They're good things, but so we have to listen to.
[00:38:07] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:08] Speaker B: It's just not allowing the good to become the enemy of the great.
[00:38:11] Speaker A: Right.
[00:38:11] Speaker B: That. Hold on loosely.
[00:38:13] Speaker A: And then the same with these, with the different movements in the church. We have to be constantly listening. Listening. Yeah, constantly listening. What can we learn? What. What can. For want of a better word, the institutional church. What can the bishops learn from hearing from the groups? What can the groups learn from hearing from the shepherd?
[00:38:31] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right.
[00:38:32] Speaker A: What can the groups learn from hearing from each other?
[00:38:36] Speaker B: I want to connect the listening thing to something you said last night and then hear what you think about it. But you were mentioning last night, I think, on a number of questions that were asked to you, how important it is to be willing to take a step and risk failure. Because on the other side of failure, you realize life's still going on.
I think that there's a beauty in my experience of listening when you have bishops, priests, and lay leaders altogether, because in my experience, the bishops are stewarding a church that's always going to move a little bit slower because it can't afford to be wrong. I think there's a beauty sometimes when bishops and priests connect with lay movements, they're like, oh, if you feel like that's what the Lord's speaking to you, I think there's some leeway here. And then it's like that ministry idea worked. This ministry idea wasn't as fruitful. Does that make sense? So listening kind of with this willingness to act on the other side, I guess, is what I'm trying to connect and not being afraid that there could be failures. Right. Because like, we're not going to be able to solve a complex problem.
Just thinking in a room and then implementing the right solution immediately. I think like the church, it's going to be living over time the solution of these things.
[00:39:48] Speaker A: You know, you may think that you. The solution to a problem is approach A.
[00:39:52] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:39:53] Speaker A: And if approach A doesn't work, it might actually by trying approach A out, you might discover approach B that you would never have thought of otherwise.
[00:40:03] Speaker B: I think so.
[00:40:03] Speaker A: But here's the big thing. The world doesn't end because approach A didn't work.
[00:40:07] Speaker C: Yeah. Right.
[00:40:08] Speaker A: And I think that that was the idea with that. Don't be afraid of failure. You know, I've learned. I, As I look back, I learned more from my failures or the things that didn't work, then I learned from the things that did.
[00:40:21] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: You know, I think that's my experience too.
[00:40:23] Speaker A: Yeah. That's just, I think a very human experience that we can all identify with. But even on that broader scale, you know, again, it has to be trusting in the Lord. Without Jesus, our nets will always be empty. They may appear to be full at times.
[00:40:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:40:41] Speaker A: But they really empty.
[00:40:42] Speaker C: Yeah. And.
[00:40:43] Speaker A: And without Jesus, our nets will always be empty. However, with Jesus, we may still have to lower our nets again and again and again. You know, so on the other side of the boat, on the other side of the boat, Jesus gave them this miraculous catch. But not everything's going to be miraculous catch. But that doesn't mean that the Lord's not with us. It just means that he means for us to. To lower the nets and pull them up and to be confident that with him something will happen. It may not be what we expect, it may not be what we even want, but somehow or another, we have to use the image of Pope Leo again. You and I are called to lower the nets again and again and again in this world in the hope of bringing the joy of the gospel, the hope of the gospel to the waters of this world.
[00:41:32] Speaker C: Yeah. Amen.
[00:41:33] Speaker B: Amen. Well, I think one of the big solutions to bring bishops, priests, and lay leaders together is relationship.
[00:41:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: Like Jesus is relationship. Like he's the relationship between humanity and the Godhead in his incarnation. He's relational in the sense of the sacraments. Like he wants to. He wants to be present to us in unbelievable ways. I just think that relationship in this season of the Church is going to be indispensable, like the relationship. I loved that when you first came to Columbus, you're like, I'm going to get to all the parishes because there was just this, like, I need to have relationship. Because relationship is the foundation of trust.
[00:42:12] Speaker C: Right. And.
[00:42:13] Speaker A: And yeah, I had no idea I was doing it because I was doing. Because I wanted to, because it was fun.
[00:42:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:42:20] Speaker A: People, sure. There was so much.
[00:42:21] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: I did not know that a year later we'd be in that Covid experience where I would have needed those relationships.
[00:42:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:42:32] Speaker A: You know, it was almost a year to the day, just two weeks shy of a year to the day. You know, so. So. So you have relationships. You know, I want to go back to something you said outside of this conversation, because I think you.
You hit on something very important that gets to this relational idea. You were talking about different people who are speakers here and the content of the question. So could you talk about that a little bit?
[00:42:54] Speaker B: Yeah. So I. I was in a text read last night mentioning this, and I mentioned it to you on our ride today is I found when we have speakers from outside of Damascus, and even some of us speakers here at Damascus, when we're in a Q and A, the questions tend to be oriented towards wanting an answer. So they'll ask something about how we think that we could encounter young people in the modern world today, or just things like that where they're looking for almost how type questions.
But whenever I heard them asking questions to you last night, they were all really personal.
They were all just like, hey, what was it like growing up and learning that you'd be a priest? And what are some experiences as a bishop that have been blessings how does what you. What was the adventure?
[00:43:43] Speaker A: How do you practice what you just said?
[00:43:46] Speaker B: That was one, right? Or like, how do you pray? It's like all these questions that I'm like, these are not the sorts of questions that I hear speakers and if I can say it, just like lay people asked. But I did hear a bishop asked it. And it seemed like the questions weren't looking for answers, but they were looking for relationship. That's, that was what was in my mind. But I wonder, what did you think about that when I heard that? Is that your experience?
[00:44:09] Speaker A: I had never thought about it before, but on the one hand I'm glad they didn't ask me any, any hard academic questions.
[00:44:19] Speaker B: I get them all wrong, but I.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: Was teasing somebody if it stumped the bishop.
[00:44:24] Speaker B: Yeah, you did say that.
[00:44:26] Speaker A: And it was one of the missionaries. And up on the stage, you couldn't really see the lights, you know, so one of the missionaries, he came up and says, I was the one who stumped the bishop.
[00:44:36] Speaker B: Well, I think that's my experience with you too. Bishop is.
[00:44:39] Speaker A: Well, it's not just me. You even said it yourself. You find that those are the questions that you get when bishops or priests.
[00:44:45] Speaker B: No, totally, totally. I'm using that more in the anecdote with you, only in the sense that the relationship that I share with you has been a real blessing to me. I know that my blessing with you is that it's taken out a mystique, I think, to, to, to the church that I can feel sometimes of like, because bishops are so busy and with the right things. Yeah, with amazing things.
Priests are so busy with the right things.
But just being in relationship with you has had me go, wow. Yeah, we're all, we're all, we're all wrestling out how we solve these problems and things. And I wonder if in the reverse, you've, you have relationships with bishops and priests and I know that you spend a lot of your time there. I wonder what your relationship with like lay movements and just lay people in general has brought to your.
[00:45:31] Speaker A: I find that it's always renewing and, and exciting.
[00:45:34] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:35] Speaker A: One of the things about being a bishop is that my world got a lot bigger. And basically what happened now is my parish has just gotten a lot bigger and that has trade offs.
[00:45:45] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:45:46] Speaker A: So the, the blessing is I get to meet a lot of incredible people. There were just like so many people who are such a big part of my life, you know, that I've seen that I've been inspired by who, who, who. Some, some of them are people who are carrying tremendous burdens.
[00:46:08] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:46:08] Speaker A: Who, who teach me just by the way they carry the.
[00:46:12] Speaker B: Live through that burden.
[00:46:13] Speaker A: Burdens heroically.
The trade off. The. The downside. The shadow side.
[00:46:18] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:46:19] Speaker A: Well, you know, with my world getting bigger, as a parish priest, you get to meet people and know them in a more intimate setting. To know them well, to know them deeply, to see. See them week after week, to, you know.
[00:46:32] Speaker B: Totally.
And that makes sense to me.
[00:46:34] Speaker A: That, that, that. That's a little bit of. Of a loss.
[00:46:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:39] Speaker A: So to deal with in a very positive way.
[00:46:42] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: These different movements, it's. It's always enlightening.
[00:46:49] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:46:49] Speaker A: I said, oh, I never thought of that.
[00:46:51] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:51] Speaker A: I hear something differently than I heard it before. It affects how I think and how I pray and what I teach. You know, like, I always thought of that a good example. You're talking. We were talking about the nets. The empty nets.
[00:47:06] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:06] Speaker A: How the Lord encountered Peter and Andrew, James and John. James and John mending their nets almost as if the reason they didn't catch anything is because these nets were all.
[00:47:16] Speaker B: Must have had a hole.
[00:47:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:19] Speaker B: We must need to fix them.
[00:47:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:20] Speaker A: And I said, well, that's even.
[00:47:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:24] Speaker A: Even that image of your nets without Jesus always come up empty. That's something that. Shalom. A movement back at home that's taught me so much. A young, young adult movement in Brooklyn that's so powerful. I was preaching on this image in Fortaleza in their home territory.
[00:47:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:45] Speaker A: And after our group had a photo of me with that quote, without Jesus on, that will always come up empty.
I can't for the life of me remember saying that.
I really don't. But they heard it.
[00:47:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:59] Speaker A: And so you say. Okay, so it does affect how I think what I, you know, what I. What I teach. But then the other thing is that experience of that interactions, relationships, completely, it just can enter into the prayer. You just like, you know, sometimes the music.
[00:48:17] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:48:17] Speaker A: Just sets you in. And, you know, sometimes it's challenging and sometimes it's. It's a little frustrating because, man, you wish you could answer every need, you know, but you know what a big thing. Here's a big difference between Ohio and Brooklyn and Queens. What we need is space.
[00:48:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:48:42] Speaker A: Space.
Everybody's like, bishop, we need to get a retreat house. We need. But we need a retreat house that only we use because we could fill it up every weekend. Okay, great.
Unfortunately, God planted so much space in Brooklyn and Queens and 5 million people in 180 square miles. God's not giving us any more space.
[00:49:04] Speaker B: No. That's fair. Last question. If you were going to give a 30 second pep talk to the young church today, you mentioned encouragement earlier.
[00:49:13] Speaker C: Like what?
[00:49:14] Speaker B: What would you encourage them with? What would your words be for them? Young people, college students, young adults. If you're going to give a 30 second pep talk, like here's, here's what I want to encourage you in two phrases.
[00:49:26] Speaker A: One, I'm going to borrow right, from Pope St. John Paul II. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to give yourself your lives to Christ. Don't be afraid. Christ never takes away from you, but transforms what you give him, you know? So don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to give yourself to Christ. Don't be afraid to enter into those broader relationships, to share the joy of the gospel and splendor of hope, number one. Number two, never give up.
[00:49:53] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:49:54] Speaker A: Never give up. Always listen in case you're wrong.
[00:49:57] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:49:58] Speaker B: Right.
[00:49:58] Speaker A: But when it comes to trying to live the joy of the gospel, if you find yourself stumbling and falling, that's what confession's all about.
[00:50:06] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:50:08] Speaker A: Never say I'm never going to change. Never say it's overwhelming.
[00:50:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:50:13] Speaker A: But those of you that don't be afraid and never give up, count on Christ.
[00:50:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:50:17] Speaker B: That's beautiful. Thank you so much for your time. Could you give a blessing for us in the studio listening?
[00:50:22] Speaker A: Sure.
May the Lord bless you and keep you. May his face shine upon you and be gracious to you. May he look upon you with kindness and grant you his peace. And may Almighty God bless you, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
[00:50:35] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:50:35] Speaker A: Thank you. Great being with you.
[00:50:37] Speaker B: Yeah, you too.
[00:50:38] Speaker A: Thank you for listening to this week's podcast of Big City Catholics. Thank you for sharing some of my simple experiences in Columbus and now back here in Brooklyn and Queensland. Please join us next week for another edition of Big City Catholics. God bless you and have a wonderful week.
