Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:10 Welcome back to another edition of Big City Catholics, our Dias and podcast with Bishop Robert Brennan, the Bishop of Brooklyn, and myself, Father Christopher Heu. We're happy to have you back for another edition on this beautiful autumn day here in the Diocese of Brooklyn. We'll begin though in prayer. In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Amen. Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with the blessed at ou amongst women and blessed it as the fruit of the I wom Jesus.
Speaker 2 00:00:37 Holy Mary, mother of God. Pray for a sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Speaker 1 00:00:41 In the name of the Father and of the Son of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Bishop, this, uh, past weekend, I visited my nephew up in Binghamton University. It was a real beautiful drive this time of year that the leaves are changing colors and the autumnal, you know, seasons and just driving up the, the throughway long drive from Brooklyn, but a, a great one and just, I love, I love this time of year. It's a, it's just a perfect time. Just really beautiful.
Speaker 2 00:01:09 It really is. And yet we're going through another change, you might say, the beauty of the, the striking beauty of the changing leaves. Um, now we're starting to see the falling leaves Right. And falling leaves as well. Yes. As I was coming down to the co cathedral today, I could see all the different grounds covered Absolutely. In the leaves that have come down. So, you know, these changes in the, in the season speak to our experie as well as, you know, with the changing of the times and the changing of the seasons of life. That's right. It's the seasons of our life and we recognize the times of death and mortality here in the Western hemisphere. The season seemed to match the mood. Liturgically speaking. That's true. You know, as you come now to these last couple of weeks in the liturgical year, the focus is on the last things. And as you also begin this month of November, we began, as we spoke of last week, with the celebration of All Saints and of all souls. And this year on All Souls Day, I went to St. Charles Cemetery, where we talked about this once before, where my family members are buried, but now I'm going as the Bishop of Brooklyn.
Speaker 1 00:02:21 That's, it sounds, uh, it sounded like a great honor to be able to be there for
Speaker 2 00:02:26 That. It is, it is. It's a great, great honor and, and that family connection. But it's amazing. It's wonderful to see people coming out on days like this. We do it in the diocese in Brooklyn here on All Souls Day and on Memorial Day, and people come regularly to remember those who have gone before them. It's an act of love. It's an act of charity.
Speaker 1 00:02:46 It is, for sure. And I mentioned last week, uh, in the podcast, and I received a few text messages afterwards. I said, you know, of, of the two, All Saints Day is a holy day of obligation. But I think I have more of a beautiful connection in my, in my opinion, with all souls, because I realized just how important praying for the dead is for the souls of our faithful departed. And as a priest, I, you know, being able to offer masses when I can for my own loved ones who have died, my grandmother, uh, in particular my cousin, uh, who died in a tragic accident. And, you know, being really feeling that that approach of these prayers, the prayers of the mass, which are the most powerful prayers really, that can be offered, are being offered for the redemption of, of their souls and their wellbeing.
Speaker 2 00:03:34 And that's something that in today's world, we seem to be losing touch with that need to pray for one another. That's not saying that God is, you know, stacking up prayers and say, when you've reached your goal, then you can enter in. But it's really a remembrance that God connected us to one another and that we all need, we all rely on the help and the mercy of God to get through this life and to be brought into the next, But also we need the support and the prayers of our brothers and sisters. How often do you find yourself saying to somebody or hearing from somebody? Father, would you pray for me today? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I have something coming up. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, please pray for me. Yeah. Well, the most profound moment of our existence is that transition from this life to the next. And we pray for our brothers and sisters then and there, you know, the funeral rights, I love it. At the beginning of the Wake service, we believe that the bonds that knit us together throughout our life do not unravel with death. Yep. You know, so we're still connected to one another. We call it the communion of saints. So we have that responsibility to pray for each other, and especially for those as they make that journey, you will to God.
Speaker 1 00:04:53 I often, in the first Eucharistic prayer, the Roman cannon, remember, Lord, your servants who are living and all gathered here whose faith and devotion are known to you. For them, we offer you the sacrifice of praise, or they offer it for themselves and all who are near, who are dear to them for the redemption of their souls and hope of health and wellbeing. So we're praying for the living. And then later in that same eucharistic prayer, and as we pray in every mass, in all the four Eucharistic prayers and the others, uh, we pray for those who have died that have gone before us with the sign of faith and rest in the sleep of peace. And always at those moments, I'm always thinking in my mind of who I'm specifically praying for. Again, like you said, those requests for prayers for the living, the requests for prayers, for those who have died, that idea of praying for one another, uniting in prayer is so, so important.
Speaker 2 00:05:44 And that brings us to the church's burial rights. And I think that's, this is something worthy of our talking. You know, the traditionally the church has what we call the three stations. There are three moments, three stations in the burial rights. There's the, I think the text calls it the vigil, but we speak of the wake. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the wake, the funeral mass, and the committal, the burial. And each of those are very, very important. I remember where this became so clear to me soon after nine 11 in 2001, when we were having all of these memorial masses, because after a suitable time, it was clear that somebody had died. Their remains were never recovered in that awful, awful tragedy. We would have memorial masses, and you could tell as people gathered, there was something missing. They hadn't been together, They hadn't grieved together, they hadn't shared their memories.
Speaker 2 00:06:44 And so they were coming into the church and talking to one another and trying to connect, but there was something missing. Obviously the mess in itself is infinitely good, but their disposition, it was harder. It was a tough grieving process. And then after not having a committal for the same reason, there was no remains. People didn't know what to do after they, they just kind of lingered because it was sort of lost. And that reminded me. But each of those stations has a point. So let's fuck the wake. Now we come from Irish family. So <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:07:19 It's incredible the different cultural ways of approaching awake service at an Irish culture's wake, it's laughing and talking and, and you almost at times forget that the, the deceased is, is there lying in state, you know, in the room. And, and other cultures, other ways in which they mourn their dead are much more somber or quiet. I've been to a lot of wakes as a child and continue
Speaker 2 00:07:47 To, Yeah. And there's something in both bots, because to a certain degree, the wake is the moment of remembrance. In a sense. That's where words of remembrance really belong. The wake is the time where remembering the person whom we love, it's, it's a time to share stories. It's a time for grieving. It's a time for tears. I, there's a certain amount of laughing, but they're also great. Many tears. We hold each other up, but we're reconnecting with each other. Again, we're solidifying those bonds, those bonds of faith, hope and love that knit us together as a family. You know, you talk about the prayer aspect of it. I went last week to the wake for the mother of father Andrew Kim. His mother had lived 103 years. Wow. God bless that. And the wake was in the church. I walked in just as the service was beginning and it was going to be a full hour all in Korean.
Speaker 2 00:08:42 Wow. And, and it was beautiful because the choir was there. Now, I'm sure because of Father Kim. They, they really pulled out all the stops. But the choir was there, the community was all, Yeah. The people were sitting in the pews and, and they did the litany of saints. It was a beautiful, Again, I couldn't understand the words. Every once in a while, I could pick up the name of the saint. I could say, I know who they're talking about. But there was a beautiful chant back and forth. And, and there was, I, it sounded to me like earlier it was the praying of the Psalms, but it was really far more prayerful. Sure. But still had that sense of remembrance and, and commendation. So, uh, you know, awake is really about that.
Speaker 1 00:09:25 Yeah. You have the, you know, the photos of nce now you go to, uh, funeral homes and you'll see everyone's has a video of their loved ones. Sometimes the video is playing on, on a screen in the salon and in the room as a priest, even as a deacon, certainly I had more opportunities to do wake services. And, um, what I would always say, uh, and I continued to really feel this way, is as a deacon or as a priest, you enter into this room, to this family as a stranger. Most times they don't know you. You don't know most of the people in the room. Maybe I knew the parishioner, but I didn't know their grandchildren or, you know, but it's our faith. And it's the fact that we're commonly there united in prayer for that one person, which helps us to leave then as friends, as brothers and sisters in Christ. I always say that. I say, you know, I, I, I come into this room as a stranger. You don't know me. Many wouldn't. I said, But I'm here to do exactly what you wanna do, which is to pray for your mom or to pray for your dad. And I want to join you in prayer.
Speaker 2 00:10:32 And from the point of view of the family, I've found through my own experiences as a family member, that I thought I knew a person pretty well. I talked a little bit about this with Deacon Kevin a couple of weeks ago when my, I remember when my grandmothers died. I thought I knew them pretty well, and then I would hear other people sharing their memories and saying, Gee, I never realized that. Or I never understood why my grandmother made this particular kind of cookie, because I found out it was somebody else who really, really liked it. Just, but the point being, you learn the impact and sometimes you learn a person's professional impact or something like that, but you start to see the person you love through the eyes of so many other people whose lives they've impacted. Yeah. And, and that can be a real eye-opening and very moving experience.
Speaker 1 00:11:18 One thing that you normally get at a wake service is that little memorial card. Well, I think probably that's an added expense to the costs of the funeral service. There is, I think, uh, beauty to that card. I keep all of those cards of the different wakes that I've been to. And it's a way for me then to mentally remember each person. It's sort of that remembrance, as you were saying.
Speaker 2 00:11:43 You know, I hold onto them myself, and it is, it's a great thing to pull it out once in a while. I know people who are far more organized than I am and keep them in date order and all that. But it is, it's nice. Every once in a while you pull out a card and you remember that person, or you remember that family. Yeah. So those cards really do help us over time also to remember, because, you know, people don't necessarily fade away from our lives. Yeah. They don't, You know, the second moment, of course, is the day its off the, the, uh, funeral mass. And sadly, actually all three of these moments, if you will, are sort of slipping away if we're not conscious about it. And so, one of the things I think we've done well with, we've reached the point of the mass being about the consolation of families.
Speaker 2 00:12:29 We have consolation ministry, and I applauded all of those because we have parishioners from the parishes walk with accompany people through that moment. And especially for a family that's hit with a terrible grief, that that's a great strength. The flip side of that is the funeral miss is not only about the consolation of the family, it's very, very much about that. But it's not only about that. It really is the prayer we offer on behalf of the person who died. And it really is the proclamation of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. And so the time for the remembrance is really at the wake. Sure. The time of the funeral is really about proclaiming Jesus's death and resurrection and the new life that this person now lives in Christ. And what worries me is very often you'll find people saying, Well, you know, it was my great aunt, and we are busy people and you know, she knows we love her and we don't really need to deal with the consolation, so we'll just do a quick graveside service, or something like that. And wow, you know, your great aunt may have been a daily communic. Can I find out? You know, And the fact of the matter is they count on us together in prayer at the funeral mass. And that's something we, we really need to recapture and be amazed
Speaker 1 00:13:56 About. There's so much here. You're absolutely right. I think on a practical level, the priests of our diocese and priests across the country, I imagine are, are dealing with how to deal with a family. Those who remain, who may not have the same understanding of the faith as their loved one who has deceased. You know, you and I were mention, were talking earlier about how important it is to make your wishes known, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> to your family members.
Speaker 2 00:14:20 Right. I had one lady in a parish when I was in Long Beach. She used to go around, she didn't have any children of her own, but she would go around to tell people, She would say, You make sure it's in your will <laugh>, that you wanna mass <laugh> that everything's contingent on that. Yeah. Because she would find that people who were there at daily mass. Yeah. Um, the family was opting, Well, maybe we don't need to do this. You know, she's, she's already with the Lord, so she's okay. We're okay. Yeah. And we can move on. And, and it's not for a lack of feeling or empathy. It's really seeing the point, seeing that this is something that's been important to the person who died. And it is something that's a key part of our Catholic faith, that our death and resurrection is lived through the Eucharist.
Speaker 1 00:15:06 Yeah. It, it leads us to a conversation also of, certainly we're talking about the funeral mass and that mass, the prayers of that mass or prayed for the redemption for the soul of that particular person, the deceased. But then on a regular basis, every day when mass is celebrated, mass is, has the option of being offered for a particular person living or deceased, you know, health, wellbeing or their souls. Can you wanna talk a little bit about just even offering masses, having masses offered for loved ones?
Speaker 2 00:15:38 Well, that's a longstanding practice in the church. And of course, in every mass, all of the deceased are remembered at every mass. Every deceased person is remembered. But there is that custom of having mass offered for someone in particular. And it's a particular remembrance and a very focused prayer, if you will. I had a friend once who was going overseas, actually, I think he was either gonna study or, or work in Rome. And before he was to leave, he said to a couple of his friends, you know, and this was in the days before, um, social media and instant communications from anywhere. When it was rather expensive to make a phone call, he, he said, You know, I'm going over every day at six o'clock. I'll remember you, would you remember me at noon? And this way we'll be together. In the heart of God will be praying together united in the heart of God.
Speaker 2 00:16:35 And in a sense, whenever we are at mass, whenever we are at the Eucharist, that is the moment when we are closest to our loved ones who have died, because we are sitting at the same banquet. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the, in a sacramental way. In the transcendent way. When we gather for the Eucharist, we are lifted up, We're taken beyond. We encounter the world beyond ourselves. We look back, Eucharist takes us back to the last supper, to the passion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But the U Eucharist also transforms us, brings us ahead to that banquet of eternity. When we are at the Eucharistic table at the altar, that's the closest we can get to the saints, because they're literally at the banquet. We are sacramentally at the banquet. We're all at the same banquet table with God. So yeah. That is a great, it's a very pious practice. It's important practice. And it's something we work at doing very carefully, very generously. It's a charitable act. Again, it's continuing that prayer for the person.
Speaker 1 00:17:41 I think it was St. John Christendom who mentioned, you know, when the celebration of the mass, the sanctuary is filled with a choir of angels, and, you know, by, by our side, it's something that, you know, if you were to almost use, use, uh, like science fiction visuals, you know, you'd almost imagine the sky's opening and seeing being so united as you're saying. That's in my mind, you know, this child like, you know, imagination of how close we are to that banquet. And at the funeral mass, the very end of the mass, there's the prayer of commendation. Again, for me, this is always a very visual thing. And, and it's always, it becomes very emotional for me. Especially if it's someone that I, I've had a relationship with I knew or prayed with and walked with as a priest or, or in my life. The prayer goes, merciful, Lord, turn toward us and listen to our prayers. Open the gates of paradise to your servant and help us who remain to comfort one another with assurances of faith until we all meet in Christ and are with you and with our brother, or with our sister forever. But that idea of merciful, Lord, you know, I always look up merciful Lord, turn toward us and listen to our prayers. Open those gates of paradise for our loved one. It's a beautiful image for me of like, That's consolation. It's prayer. It's for the redemption of those, their soul that, you know, it's all encapsulated
Speaker 2 00:18:59 And the proclamation of our faith. Every, every time we celebrate one of the sacraments at the end, ultimately what we're doing is we're proclaiming our faith. We're saying, Yes, Lord. I truly believe every time giving glory to God, it's an act of faith. Going back to the funeral mass, one of my pet peeves is the expression to celebrate somebody's life. So, you know, instead of having a funeral mass, we're gonna gather for a celebration of life, or even to call the funeral mass celebration of their life. I don't think it's intentional, but that has within it this idea of, Okay, well that's over. That's done. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we're celebrating their life as if, okay, this is a life that's passed and gone forever. Yep. And so we, you know, we're just celebrating what's been, whereas in our faith, what our, we we're not celebrating that person's life only we're giving thanks for that person sharing our memories.
Speaker 2 00:19:54 But in the mass, we are actually celebrating that person's new life. And we're praying for that person on that journey to that new life, that eternal life. And if you really think about it, for us as Catholics, everything we do in our faith, everything we do in the church is for that moment. Everything we do, you know, all of our works, all of our teaching, it's all about really and truly believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross of rose from the dead. And that we're going to live forever. It's really and truly living our lives in such a way that we can make that journey. And then at that moment, to be consoled. What consoles us is not somebody saying, I'm sorry for your loss. What consoles us is that firm belief that this person really is alive, and that we will be together with God forever. That, that's, that's a remarkable thing. Some of our hopes are, again, I don't mean this in a critical way, but some of our hopes are just a little too shallow. Yeah. Where is what God has promised us is beyond our comprehension.
Speaker 1 00:21:07 We move then from the celebration of the funeral mass to the, to the burial services. And this, I think, has been something that the church has had to, again, keep mindful of and and attentive with, because there's hallmark kind of approaches to scattering of ashes or placing even creaming in, in little bracelets or lockets I've seen. Yes. And so that someone can wear the, the creaming of, of their loved one.
Speaker 2 00:21:37 Some of these things, they're well motivated and they actually do speak of that sense of longing. But again, it's for what are we longing? And the real longing of our human heart that God created within us is longing to, for eternal life. It's for God himself. Every time we pray the apostles creed at the beginning of the rosary, we always say, we conclude, I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Amen. The resurrection of the body. That's an aspect of Catholic faith that we can easily lose sight of. It's almost like we, in our imagination, we've sort of imagined, Okay, now the soul separates from the body, soul goes to heaven, body goes into the earth. And now we live in a, in a, in a new, um, existence. Well, that's not Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching. You see it in the catechism is that somehow or another, at the end of time, God is going to reunite us body and soul in heaven. How that's going to happen. You got me
Speaker 1 00:22:50 <laugh>. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:22:52 You got me.
Speaker 1 00:22:52 You don't have the inside scoop on
Speaker 2 00:22:54 That. Not at all. But I, I mean, think about the, the fact that we even exist. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But that God's plan is that, that we believe in the resurrection of the body. And so our Catholic burial rights are based on that firm conviction. And it's showing a great respect of a great reverence for the body, both the body in this world, which has been the temple of the Holy Spirit. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and the reverence for the body, which will be brought to wholeness again in God. So what does that mean? Well, in terms of funeral practice, the preferred approach has always been reverent burial. Our cemeteries are very important places that our cemeteries are sacred ground. We bless the ground of the Catholic cemetery and other cemeteries. We bless, bless the individual grave. So that, that it's consecrated ground. We believe that it's set apart, and we go to those places and visit those places out of reverence.
Speaker 2 00:23:55 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> for that human body that is preferred way. As you know, there was a time when cremation wasn't allowed because there was a time when cremation was done. This goes way, way, way back. But there was a time when cremation was done as an act of defiance against the belief in the resurrection. Sure, sure. And so that's why the church would not accept cremation in the past, because at the time, not now mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but at the time people would've done that as a way of saying, I don't believe mm-hmm. <affirmative> in the resurrection, and I'm gonna show you, make sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's not what we believe. Now, there were practical reasons for cremation, and then there were, people would have that, a personal preference for cremation. And as long as it's done with the expectation of the resurrection from the dead and the resurrection of the body, that certainly is permitted.
Speaker 2 00:24:45 But even there, when we still believe that these remains, we prefer to use the term cremated remains rather than the Nas. These remains, the cremated remains are meant to be kept together, placed in an earned, buried in turd, in a family grave, placed in a Muslim in the cemetery there were, or in the appropriate place in a colu, barium and colu bariums are usually at cemeteries. We do have the shrine at Regina Pats where there are colu bariums. But by and large, you would find those at cemeteries as well. I understand the sentiment of wanting to have somebody close to you by having their remains close to you. But that's not what the Catholic practice is. The Catholic practice is the reverent internment or placement, and then going to visit that person. We don't believe in the scattering of the cremated remains. We don't divide it up and keep pieces because when we believe that the body and the soul God created us in unified way, and even though that body ceases to exist as we know it, now we know that God is going to raise that body up. So we wanna show that same kind of reverence and peaceful disposition. And so that's why the Catholic belief is what it is in Catholic practice.
Speaker 1 00:26:03 And you know, even to, uh, Bishop, I think the, the burial, you know, when we think of like the stages of grief and death, there's sort of closure there that comes in those three, three different distinct stages. And to keep the cremas at home, I would imagine too, it doesn't help with that sense of closure. There's those levels.
Speaker 2 00:26:25 It's an eternal wake. Yeah. Maybe sometimes we start off meaning, well, and then who knows what happens. It's all part of that ritual. The very act of the internment, the wake, the mass, and the internment. There's this continuing act, you know, it's not unlike holy week. You begin the wake service with the sign of the cross. You don't really have a blessing at the end. You have a dismissal with a prayer. You don't begin the funeral mess with the sign of the cross. Mm. You begin with that greeting because it's all one continuous liturgical act. Nor do you conclude with the final blessing, and then you don't begin this service with this grave, with the sign of the cross. We conclude with a blessing. The original thing, it's one continuous liturgical act, just like it was like on the Triduum. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:27:17 I must have slept through that class in seminary because, you know, it's, it's the first time, like admittedly that I'm realizing that you're absolutely right. There's a, it's a continued act.
Speaker 2 00:27:30 It's a continued act. It's one liturgical act. And so now obviously there are times that things, that circumstances change things, but that's, that's the intention. And so you're, you're correct to say that there is a closure in this. There's a point where we say, Okay, now we reverently entrust the body here to this place of rest and this person to the arms of God. Yeah. And we long for that day when we will be together in the heart of God. That's, that's the beauty of our Catholic faith.
Speaker 1 00:28:01 That's Bishop, thank you for, uh, this is a great conversation, really to develop. And it
Speaker 2 00:28:07 Is, I know there are many questions about our practices around death and the reasons why. And again, it's not to attribute any bad will to people who have some of these other sentimental practices, but, but it really, it's really rooted in our firm conviction that we were made by God made to live forever, and that we will rise with Jesus Christ. It's an act of profound Christian faith. And at the moment, when it's the hardest, when we're feeling our pain the most, we express that firm Christian faith. And that's what gives us hope. That's what gives us hope. You know, just on a, a much more worldly note this week we have election day on Tuesday. And so we don't tell people how they should vote, but what we do is we remind people to keep in mind those, those principles have our faith. You know, the Second Vatican Council teaches us to interpret the signs of the time by the light of faith, by the light of the gospel. So we encourage Catholics to get out and to be participants in the civic practice and to exercise that and to bring with them that experience of our faith.
Speaker 1 00:29:15 Thank you, Bishop. This was a great opportunity to be with you again, and we look forward to our, uh, upcoming podcast. Would you like to just end with a blessing for us? Sure.
Speaker 2 00:29:25 Me. The Lord bless you and keep you May's face shine upon you and be gracious to you, May look upon you kindness and grant you his peace and may mighty God bless you, the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen.
Speaker 1 00:29:35 Thank you all for joining us In this addition of big City Catholics, we invite you to please share the word of this podcast with others and we'll see you again next week. Douglas.
